Recording bells....

[Roger Lewis]

I'm doing a little research for a customer and the question intrigued me as well so I'd like to draw on the extensive knowledge often demonstrated here.

When did the big American manufacturers stop making tubas with recording bells or did they start to go out of "fashion" at some point in time. I have a client who wants to demonstrate to the Board of Ed exactly how long the instruments in her progranm have not been popular.

As always, thanks to all.

[MartyNeilan]

You have some pull, Roger - Bring 'Em Back!!!

In today's age of acoustically dead rooms, nothing lays down the bass foundation like a bellfront horn. Not to mention being one of the only viable options in an outdoor concert without a bandshell.

IF one plays tastefully with good, clean articulation, I now see no possible disadvantage to these horns other than aesthetic. The only possible advantage I see of uprights in a school environment is to somewhat reduce the impact of sloppy playing - with the resultant sloppiness becoming mush rather than splat. Why not just teach the tubas to play right in the first place? After all, should we make trumpets bell-up to compensate for their poor tonguing as well?

[Chuck(G)]

There was an article in the February 1974 issue of The Instrumentalist by Ronald Sellers that reported on a listening test, so the controversy was still going on.

The article pointed out a few things:

1. Articlulation problems and noises such as water in the slides and valve clatter were magnified by the bell-front models.

2. Bell front models are very directional--an off-axis listener experiences a marked decrease in volume.

3. Fiberglass sousaphones do not sound as good as brass bell-front tubas.

4. Turning the bell backwards to bounce the sound off the back stage wall produced the same effect as a bell-up horn.

[cjk]

When did the big American manufacturers stop making tubas with recording bells or did they start to go out of "fashion" at some point in time. I have a client who wants to demonstrate to the Board of Ed exactly how long the instruments in her progranm have not been popular.

You could solicit tubenet or tubaeuph owners of recording bell instruments to send you the make and the year of manufacture from the online serial number dating charts. Then just poke through them until you find the most recent year.

As for me, I'm lazy. I'd just take Bloke's educated guess.

[ThomasDodd]

I have a client who wants to demonstrate to the Board of Ed exactly how long the instruments in her progranm have not been popular.

This bugs me a bit.

Are the horns in good shape? Do they play well? Then why does is matter how old the horns are? I'd rather have a 60 year old horn that plays well than a brand new one that plays bad.

Do you think a new horn will hold up as well? A 30 yearold horn in good shape has probven it's self. A new horn is a big gamble. It mught lats, and it might not.

The University here has some nice Besson, 3 valve compensating horns with recording bells. I just don't like the top valve arangement. They are said to be over 60 years old. I prefered them to the newer, upright bell horns they have (big 4 rotorary valve types), which are "worth" more.

Replacing horns just becaues they are "out of style" is not the way schools should spend money.

Then again, I just bought an old Reynolds trumpet to go with my 30+ year old tuba and trombone (carried around in a 1970 cadillac).

[Roger Lewis]

Many programs have had their funding curtailed for many years...being passed over for "academic" subjects. If a band director wanted to show how long it has been since they could afford a decent tuba I feel this would be a very valid measure. This is where you will see the biggest difference - not in flutes or trumpets.

Just my thoughts.

[Joe Baker]

As a taxpayer, I'm with Thomas. If the horns are in good shape, why replace them?

If they are NOT in good (or viably redeemable) condition, why not get the serial numbers of the actual instruments in question, and check the serial number list (http://www.musictrader.com has some good info) to demonstrate how old the instruments are -- as in 'Lyndon Johnson was President of the U.S. when these horns were purchased' or 'half the teachers in this school were not yet in Kindergarten when...', etc.
________________________________
Joe Baker, who hopes schools will only replace tubas that NEED replacing..

[Tabor]

Bell front tubas have been out of style for a LONG time.

Music funding is sometimes very hard to get. I hope that this teacher gets some money but isn't forced to replace ALL of the bell-front models. Those big old bell-front tubas (like the old Conns) are great to have around becuase they never seem to break beyond repair and are heavy/akward enough that kids can't throw them too far.

Tabor

[Richard Perry]

When I lived in Alabama, I came across a number of bands using (and purchasing) bell-front horns--particularly if the director was a Jacksonville State graduate (the 20J influence). I knew a director who purchased a new King 2341 (before the redesign) with a bell front in 1998 or 1999, so I'd say those were among the last ones.

RHP

[ThomasDodd]

Many programs have had their funding curtailed for many years...being passed over for "academic" subjects. If a band director wanted to show how long it has been since they could afford a decent tuba I feel this would be a very valid measure. This is where you will see the biggest difference - not in flutes or trumpets.

Just my thoughts.

And valid.

But, does the band need a new horn? Would there more player with another horn? Do the current horns have problems that a new horn worldn't have?

Are new tubas that much better than older horns? My experience with most things is that newer is sledom better and often worse.

Just because a new horn hasn't been purchased in 20 years doesn't mean it was because the funds were not there. If it's a new(ish) director, they may just think the hons are old and not know their history well. Fashion is no reason to replace a horn. If it works, past directors had no reason to replace them, and never even tried.

[Richard Perry]

When I lived in Alabama, I came across a number of bands using (and purchasing) bell-front horns--particularly if the director was a Jacksonville State graduate (the 20J influence). I knew a director who purchased a new King 2341 (before the redesign) with a bell front in 1998 or 1999, so I'd say those were among the last ones.

RHP

if i'm not mistaken though, those 2341's had detachable bells, which allow for both bells to be used, if needed in different situations

You're right. In my experience, however, the second bell (whether upright or bell-front) was usually sold separately--and rarely purchased. I'm not sure any manufacturer offers a detachable-bell tuba anymore, regardless of configuration. King may have been the last one.

Actually, I'm not aware of any bell-front tubas where the bells weren't detachable--are there fixed-bell examples out there?

RHP

[Chuck(G)]

Wayne, are these the folks?

http://www.musik-glassl.de/

I don't remember a bell-front tuba, though.

[hurricane_harry]

out of style?!? i don't know about the rest of you but i love the look of a good recording bell tuba. i'de kill a man with my bare hands to get one in a decent condition. MY BARE HANDS!

[Lew]

Recording bells may have gone "out of style" in the 60s or 70s, but I know that when I bought my 2 piece King 2341 in 1993 the "bell front" model was still an option. There is probably no exact date for when they went "out of style," so Joe's estimate is probably as close as you'll get.

[MichaelDenney]

My high school bought a new bell-front King 2341 in 1965. When I went to college the next year all the tuba majors were buying horns with upright bells--German rotary horns were the fashion and had been for at least a few years. All the same that 2341 had a vibrant sound and excellent scale.

[Art Hovey]

I had a King one-piece recording-bell tuba all through high school and college. It was made some time in the '30's, so it was about 30 years old when I was using it. The bell still looked like new. Recording bells don't get mashed up the way upright bells do, because you have to lay the tuba flat on the floor when it's not in use.

[Gongadin]

<img src="http://www.musik-glassl.de/Bilder/fiberweb.jpg">

[Richard Perry]

Thanks to those who posted with info about one-piece bell-front tubas. Good stuff to know!

[Teubonium]

The U. of Iowa Symphony Band converted from bell-fronts to uprights during my years there. I played euph in that band and couldn't remember the details of the conversion, so I consulted the pictures in my yearbooks.

In 1959 there were 4 recording bells, no uprights. In 1961 there were 3 recording bells, 2 uprights. In 1963, there were 7 uprights, no recorders.

BTW, Chester Schmitz was one of those tubists in 1959 and 1961.

I have a King 1240 recording bell made in 1953. A great old tuba that I use for TubaChristmas and some outdoor gigs. I've had nothing but good comments about the sound (and looks) of this horn.