Switching from BBb to CC

[iiipopes]

I will agree that a CC generally has less mass than a BBb of the same model, even if it has a 5th valve, because of the difference in taper in critical areas and the different balance of conical verses cylindrical tubing, and the main bugle being @24 inches shorter, with corresponding shorter valve slides. Less mass, generally, all other things being equal, means less inertia, which can be inferred to mean quicker response.

Notice I said "generally" because not absolutely, depending on the manufacturers.

Notice also I did not comment on anything having to do with pitch, intonation, mouthpieces, the player, etc.

And finally, notice I said, "...all else being equal," which it most definitely is not, because a tuba is a complex musical instrument, not simply a single dimension resonance chamber. With the curves, valves, nodes, antinodes, placement of braces, different aspects of conical v cylindrical in diffrent areas, etc., the "blow," which could also be referred to as the "mechanical impedance" of the instrument, may vary in other ways.

So I'm not so sure I would go all out and make the same inferential conclusion that bloke did, because of the imprecision of the word "blow," which can mean anything from how much air is expended to intonate a particular note, to a generic subjective description as to how the horn plays overall, and everything in between.

[Bob Kolada]

Quick and nimble my ***. When I play a contrabass tuba (especially a large one) I want the SOUND*, and to me most C tubas don't have that.


*Possibly because of all my "weight training" on my "new" Giant in the last few weeks the last time I played my unit's 187 I was surprised at how easier it was to play and I was really digging the sound.

[UTSAtuba]

I think what bloke is trying to say (this is not to say I believe in it) that a CC would "blow" better because of *slightly* shortened tubing. I.E., "Blowing" into a subsubcontrabass tuba in CCCC versus "blowing" into a piccilito trumpet in C10.

FWIW, I feel a 186 CC is only a tiny bit more air efficient than a 186 BBb. It's there...but it's tiny.

Just my $.0005

Joseph

[Rick Denney]

It is completely reasonable for the C tuba to cover a bit of the ground we normally expect between Bb and F. My F tubas are definitely more nimble than my Bb tubas, and that's one reason I play them.

I have also experienced the difference between Bb and C Miraphone 186 models, even of the same vintage.

But nimbleness is just one quality, as Joe explains.

Rick "who can't tell any difference in sound out front" Denney

[Tubaguyry]

A few people have already mentioned this, but it bears repeating: Play etudes/repertoire you are already very comfortable with on the BBb. Also, don't "ease into" the switch. Just go cold turkey. You will be frustrated for a short time because you don't sound the way you want to, but it will be worth it once you are comfortable with the new fingerings.

I saw it mentioned in this thread that some people may not recommend playing the things you are already familiar with. That's just stupid. Don't listen to them. If you are playing pieces you know, you already have them "in your ear." And that's half (or more) of the battle right there.

FWIW, when I made the switch I kept things very simple. I played just a few of the etudes from the Tyrell and Bordogni books over and over and over and over and over (you get the picture) until the new fingerings were solid. It got to be a bit tedious, but in just a couple of weeks I was making very few fingering mistakes, even on new pieces.

Good luck in your search for a horn, and the ensuing switch!

[Rick Denney]

Each time this topic comes up, there are those who say it only took them a couple of weeks, and those who required more time keep quiet for fear of embarrassment. And there are those who argue against it on the basis that the change is not needed at all.

Some will say that innately understanding the meaning of the valves will help propel one over those hurdles most easily.

I would say that both of these depend more on the situation and ability of the player than on any external principle, and also on the fact that different people have different learning pathways.

For example, it took me a solid year to become really comfortable on F tuba, which I define as being just as willing to go into a reading situation with the F as with the Bb. There was no problem with my understanding of the meaning of the valves. But there were limitations in my situation. Fact is, I wasn't a good sight-reader even on Bb, and my comfort level with scale patterns was also pretty dreadful. Having those fundamental skills firmly in one's grasp will make it much easier to add an instrument.

One thing that music students and professionals can claim that many hobbyists cannot is a period in their lives when they were able to devote every waking moment to their music. Those who spend several years practicing eight hours a day and performing in a variety of ensembles every week will gain a transparency into the process that will always elude those who don't practice extensively every day. There are exceptions--some people seem to have that transparency from birth. Often, though, those who do are the ones compelled to do it, and pretty soon they are no longer an exception.

For those who have lived and breathed the instrument full-time for several years, adding a tuba in a different pitch will come more naturally than those who still struggle at fundamental levels with their instrument.

So, the first principle to easing the transition is either 1.) become so proficient on your current axe that everything about playing it has become completely subconscious, or 2.) recognize that making the switch is another step in an existing process of learning the fundamentals. The more of one's mind that is consumed with the basics, the less room there will be to address a different fingering system.

For pro-wannabes, that is a test. Anyone desiring to be a pro should be at a level where adding a pitch comes pretty easily. If it doesn't, then it's worth some effort to identify and correct the reasons why not. For those not attempting to make it as pros, take as long as you need and enjoy the journey.

It took me quite a while to add the F to my abilities. I did not go cold turkey--I still had to play the contrabass in ensembles. But I did learn the F in the same way that I learned the Bb. At first, I played stuff I knew and wrote in fingerings for the difficult passages. I also spent time just playing melodies out of my head to get used to the sounds made by the F compared to the Bb. I did not attempt to equate Bb and F with the notion that the fingerings are the same in parts of the scale and different in other parts. What little bit of that sort of thinking I did revealed to me that that way lies madness. I decided to learn the F as a completely different instrument. The year that it took to reach comfort with the F was a LOT less time than it took to reach the same skill level as a beginner on Bb.

There is no doubt that learning F forced me to reckon with my ignorance of scales and poor reading fundamentals. It provided a small breakthrough--I finally buckled down and learned some scales, and that helped enormously with reading. And then a year later, I had an opportunity to spend a lot of time performing music for about a year--many hours each day on weekends in nearly every night of the week. I never had the chance to do it full time, but I crossed a lot of bridges in that year, mostly playing the F tuba on which I was still somewhat of a beginner.

I don't feel compelled or motivated to learn C for a variety of reasons, but if I did, I would just buy one and start playing stuff I knew, writing fingerings in when necessary and playing things as perfectly as possible. And I would spend a LOT of time with scales, and a LOT of time playing music.

Rick "recognizing that the 80 hours a pro or pro trainee might devote to the switch in two weeks might take a hobbyist several months" Denney

[hbcrandy]

Without tubas in CC, life would be flat.

This bad pun is a quote from my son, the trumpet player.

[Rick Denney]

...from my son, the trumpet player.

You must be very proud.

Rick " " Denney

[Wyvern]

Having learnt to play tubas in all four keys (to a certain extent), my personal experience is that in a couple weeks of practice playing familiar music a limited proficiency can be achieved.

However, to feel really comfortable sight reading in the new key without having to 'think' about the fingerings takes a couple YEARS.

In the interim there will be the occasional slip into the wrong fingerings - sometimes using the 'new' fingering on the existing tuba which worried me a lot to start with, but have now realised is all part of the learning process and as time goes by happens less and less.

After 10 months on F, I am still not fully comfortable at sight reading 'difficult' music - in particular that with lots of accidentals.

I entirely sympathise with those who want to stick with Eb, or Bb as is familiar - it makes sense unless your are required to learn professionally. I once doubted my wisdom getting a C tuba, but was seduced by the sound and have again more recently by F. I now have no doubt I did the right thing in switching keys to enhance my tonal pallet!

To an outsider, it seems a very strange system you have in the states of starting players on Bb, only to require them to change to C later

[pigman]

With a tuba its the sound . Sound baby Sound. While I agree with Bloke that CC has a little pop. there is just no way to get the depth of sound that a BB gives you. To me it was an easy choice . especially for the type of work I did. 90% of the time I was called for my sound (and time). As for My F I finnaly got comfortable with the fingerings after I sold it. Just didnt need a once a year horn.
Go for the sound . dont get caught up switching because a teacher said its what pros play or because you heard its better from the net.

One of the main things we always get away from is that we play musical instrumets. INSTRUMENTS. its not the horn. its the player Become a musician than worry about how good you ultimate Instrument is. I her too many fabulous young players that can read and play fly sh*t from 20 feet that have no concept of music or what the real purpose a tuba plays in a ensemble. John Fletcher is the best example. The best musician Ive ever heard that happened to own some tubas. Play like him and then you can play any horn you want.

[pigman]

By the way Mr. Bells favorite horn was his 4v Eb king sousaphone. He used it all the time . even in the NY plilharmonic>

[sloan]

I just played the last Christmas concert of the year on Eb, and will go back to BBb in January. I find myself in the middle - agreeing with 2 or 3 of the 5 or 6 "sides" to this debate.

My experience is that once through Rubank's is enough to get the fingerings "reheasal ready". That means that I would occasionally have to pencil in a fingering (although: interesting side comment - I constantly find music in the folder with fingerings written in. Without exception, the pencilled in fingerings are for Eb). That's not enough to be perfect, or even "very comfortable" - but it's good enough to start USING them instead of just LEARNING them. This got me to what I call "slow quarter-note" speed. As long as the music is in slow quarter notes, I'm OK. Fast runs, with accidentals, which cross over that nasty spot where some fingerings are the same as the old horn and others are very different....well - I make more than my share of errors there. But then, I'm an amateur hack and make errors all the time. If your standards are higher, I expect that you're good enough to learn faster.

Actually, on the concert Sunday, I had more trouble remembering that I had a 4th valve on the left hand than I did remembering that the horn was in Eb. I did the Nashville TubaChristmas on a 3V Eb helicon. That said, I must admit that beginning of the band arrangement of Nutcracker highlights was still "challenging" - mostly because it's constantly going in and out (both down and up) of the notes at the bottom of the staff where Eb and BBb fingerings are identical. I was tempted to use the "hold down the 4th valve and let your fingers take over" hack - but I resisted.

One thing I've found useful as an exercise:

a) play something that you have "in your fingers" - in the new key. That is, play the same fingerings but at the new pitch. This was especially useful to me going from BBb to Eb - it really helped expand my range upwards.

b) now, play the same piece - but play the OLD pitches with the NEW fingerings. This requires you to go from old fingerings back to the actual notes, and then map them to the new fingerings.

DO NOT use printed music to do this - do it all from memory.

and, whatever you do, don't think of it as "transposing". In step a), you are "auto-transposing", using your fingers, but not your brain. All it requires is a tolerance for the pitch change. I submit that if the pitch change bothers you, you are still thinking of the "notes" and don't yet have that piece "in your fingers".

Part b) really exercises your brain. I suspect it may feel a lot like trying to transpose on the fly (but, since I can't do that...I wouldn't know).

I think the key here is to have some pieces that literally are "in your fingers". You can play them without thinking of the notes. That's why they are easy to play on an instrument in a different key. Playing them "at concert pitch" on the new instrument requires you to dredge up the actual notes (which you don't usually have to think about any more) from the fingerings, and then turn them back into the new fingering.

As an example, start with something trivial. Play "Taps" with all notes on the open bugle. Play it on the open bugle of the new horn. Easy, right? Now, play it on the old pitches on the new horn. I'll bet that EVERYONE can play "Taps" without a thought - but not everyone can write it out without thinking about it just a bit. It's not very hard - but it's every so slightly more difficult than just playing it. Playing *those* pitches on the new horn is just a tad *more* difficult. Easy enough to do - but just hard enough to get your attention. That's the perfect prescription for learning something new.

so...start with Taps - and work up to "The Ride". Everyone knows that, right?

[Dylan King]

Each time this topic comes up, there are those who say it only took them a couple of weeks, and those who required more time keep quiet for fear of embarrassment. And there are those who argue against it on the basis that the change is not needed at all.

Some will say that innately understanding the meaning of the valves will help propel one over those hurdles most easily.

I would say that both of these depend more on the situation and ability of the player than on any external principle, and also on the fact that different people have different learning pathways.

For example, it took me a solid year to become really comfortable on F tuba, which I define as being just as willing to go into a reading situation with the F as with the Bb. There was no problem with my understanding of the meaning of the valves. But there were limitations in my situation. Fact is, I wasn't a good sight-reader even on Bb, and my comfort level with scale patterns was also pretty dreadful. Having those fundamental skills firmly in one's grasp will make it much easier to add an instrument.

One thing that music students and professionals can claim that many hobbyists cannot is a period in their lives when they were able to devote every waking moment to their music. Those who spend several years practicing eight hours a day and performing in a variety of ensembles every week will gain a transparency into the process that will always elude those who don't practice extensively every day. There are exceptions--some people seem to have that transparency from birth. Often, though, those who do are the ones compelled to do it, and pretty soon they are no longer an exception.

For those who have lived and breathed the instrument full-time for several years, adding a tuba in a different pitch will come more naturally than those who still struggle at fundamental levels with their instrument.

So, the first principle to easing the transition is either 1.) become so proficient on your current axe that everything about playing it has become completely subconscious, or 2.) recognize that making the switch is another step in an existing process of learning the fundamentals. The more of one's mind that is consumed with the basics, the less room there will be to address a different fingering system.

For pro-wannabes, that is a test. Anyone desiring to be a pro should be at a level where adding a pitch comes pretty easily. If it doesn't, then it's worth some effort to identify and correct the reasons why not. For those not attempting to make it as pros, take as long as you need and enjoy the journey.

It took me quite a while to add the F to my abilities. I did not go cold turkey--I still had to play the contrabass in ensembles. But I did learn the F in the same way that I learned the Bb. At first, I played stuff I knew and wrote in fingerings for the difficult passages. I also spent time just playing melodies out of my head to get used to the sounds made by the F compared to the Bb. I did not attempt to equate Bb and F with the notion that the fingerings are the same in parts of the scale and different in other parts. What little bit of that sort of thinking I did revealed to me that that way lies madness. I decided to learn the F as a completely different instrument. The year that it took to reach comfort with the F was a LOT less time than it took to reach the same skill level as a beginner on Bb.

There is no doubt that learning F forced me to reckon with my ignorance of scales and poor reading fundamentals. It provided a small breakthrough--I finally buckled down and learned some scales, and that helped enormously with reading. And then a year later, I had an opportunity to spend a lot of time performing music for about a year--many hours each day on weekends in nearly every night of the week. I never had the chance to do it full time, but I crossed a lot of bridges in that year, mostly playing the F tuba on which I was still somewhat of a beginner.

I don't feel compelled or motivated to learn C for a variety of reasons, but if I did, I would just buy one and start playing stuff I knew, writing fingerings in when necessary and playing things as perfectly as possible. And I would spend a LOT of time with scales, and a LOT of time playing music.

Rick "recognizing that the 80 hours a pro or pro trainee might devote to the switch in two weeks might take a hobbyist several months" Denney

Very acute observations.

In my experience learning horns, everything happened quickly -- and practically by force -- which led to learning the horns at a competent level (for that point in my career) almost immediately.

When I switched to tuba from trombone in the eighth grade I had one weekend. Our tuba player was expelled from school for dealing pot, and our band director practically begged me to learn. He gave me an Eb horn on a Friday, and I was playing it in band the next Monday. I remember going through the beginning tuba book Friday afternoon, and then practicing all of my trombone literature an octave down on Sunday. By Monday, I could actually keep up an um-pah-pah with the band!

Now, I had studied music almost from day one of my life. Piano, violin, trumpet, trombone, etc. It certainly helped having an already musically trained MIND in this process.

In the ninth grade I had become so proficient at the Eb tuba that my band director scheduled several concerts with Tubby the Tuba. My cousin, Lester Dropkin, located an old Mirafone 185, which my mother bought and I received only a week before the first scheduled concert. I had Tubby down on Eb, memorized, but I really wanted to play it on my fancy (new to me) 5-valve horn, instead of the ragged old Reynolds Eb the school owned. I did nothing that week after school but learn the Tubby the Tuba part on CC, and performed it that Saturday night to a packed house of about 500 persons, including playing the Bouree from the "Air and Bouree" as an encore on the CC.

Now I'm no Superman, but music has always been easy for me. A similar situation popped up when I first started playing F tuba. I liked the horn so much (Rudy 6 valve) that I couldn't help but take it to a gig only two days after buying it from Tommy Johnson.

I recall Mr. Johnson telling me a similar story about his first experience with the F tuba. I'm pretty sure he was scheduled to perform the Broughton Sonata somewhere (maybe for the first time ever), and had learned it by memory on the CC, but after receiving his first F tuba he learned it IN ONE DAY on the new horn, and performed it the next!

Clear your mind. Think happy thoughts. The finger patterns for all brass instruments are the same. All you really have to do is put your brain onto a different line in the staff. If you hear the note in your head, and have the right valves pressed at the right time, you will be playing in the new key in no time.

No problemo.

[UTSAtuba]

so...start with Taps - and work up to "The Ride". Everyone knows that, right?

[UTSAtuba]

re: Dylan King's response

I didn't do anything that extreme, but I did learn Mvt. II of the RVW on a (new to me) F tuba a few weeks before an audition (FYI: it was a very bad move AND it was not a good rendition of the movement...but I tried ). In other words, I agree with what you are saying in that something can be learned if one applies what he/she has learned in the past directly to an instrument.

Just my. $.02

Joseph

[ZachDomrese]

Wow,
Thanks for all the great advice. I should be getting my new PT-606p on Thursday and after my All-State audition Sunday I plan on going "cold turkey" right into playing my new horn all the time.
Thanks!