2341, 1241 or what?

[gilmored]

Ok, well I dug this horn out of the back corner of a storage room in the middle of nowhere at school the other day. I cleaned it off a little and oiled it up and it plays great. I'm thinking about trying to acquire it from my school and before I do I want to know what it is exactly. I can't find any records on the horn other than it's a King. The serial number is 859563 which according to CG Conn's website puts it being made sometime around 1981- 82. I did a little digging in the archives and found one really great thread on this topic viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22867&hilit=king+2341+info but it really didn't answer my question because this one has the double loop in the 3rd valve slide and the top 1st valve slide is moveable. So now I'm a little lost. I understand that they made lots of little changes over the years so how do you really identify these horns or does it really matter?

[tbn.al]

I do belive you have a 1241.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~marge/king_2340_bbb_tuba.htm" target="_blank

[iiipopes]

And a very fine one.

[Dan Schultz]

I do belive you have a 1241.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~marge/king_2340_bbb_tuba.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank

Yes... I also think it's a 1241. But... it appears to have the 1st tuning slide on top... a characteristic of the 2341 tubas made after 1980.

According to parts resources... the formal date of the change from 124X to 234X was in 1980 after serial number 780900.

Generally... it's commonly assumed that the 234X has a 1st slide on top, the 'squiggly' 3rd wrap was gone, and the leadpipe was more of a 'straighter shot' into the valve cluster. The valve section was virtually the same for well over 70 years.

[gilmored]

So, formally it's a 2341 since it has a 8xxxxx serial number but really it's a 1241 in disguise? I'm sorry if I still seem a little confused. I do understand that they wouldn't leave these things alone which is the reason for confusion. Really, how hard would it have been to stamp the model number somewhere on the horn body? Also, are the 2341 and 1241 upright bells interchangeable since virtually they're the same horn and how hard/ much would it take to find one?

[gilmored]

Well, as I said the horn was in the back of a storage room and it hasn't been used in years. I haven't talked with my director about it yet but I'm hoping that I may be able to purchase it or maybe they MIGHT give it to me in the place of some scholarship money. The school owns several other horns which include a few B&S PT1's, a couple of Yamaha YBB 321's and a Conn 5J (which I currently play.) I see this horn getting no use from the department so I want it. Wanting to know "exactly what it is" is really just for my curiosity.

[Dan Schultz]

So, formally it's a 2341 since it has a 8xxxxx serial number but really it's a 1241 in disguise? I'm sorry if I still seem a little confused. I do understand that they wouldn't leave these things alone which is the reason for confusion. Really, how hard would it have been to stamp the model number somewhere on the horn body? Also, are the 2341 and 1241 upright bells interchangeable since virtually they're the same horn and how hard/ much would it take to find one?

That is correct. A serial number of 8xxxxx (according to those still alive at Conn and the Allied parts lists) is 'officially' a 234X tuba. It's just one of those very confusing manufacturing/model changes that wasn't fully documented. The bells interchange although the early ones were 22" and the later ones were 19". There were 234X horns produced with detachable bells but the newest version of the same model utilizes a totally different one-piece bell. The confusion is partly due to the UMI/Conn-Selmer/King/Conn contortions through the late 70's. The confusion was probably further enhanced by a common marketing ploy to introduce new models as 'bigger and better' even though they are virtually the same thing.

[gilmored]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I tried the PT1 and didn't really care for it, then the YBB321 and thought that it would make a better flower vase/ water jug or lamp than a tuba. Finally I played on the 5J, it's ok for the most part and I could get by with it if need be but I would like this horn. I'm not going to put a lot of work into it until I find out if I will be able to get it or not. It has its dents and dings, the only major one that messed with the playing was at the connecting joint below the bell receiver. I was able to roll it out with a drum stick and you can barely tell its there at all. The lacquer is shot but I would probably remove it and maybe one day get it redone. I really feel blessed to be able to have a horn to play but I would really like my own. I'm saving up and if I'm not able to get this one I should be able to buy one towards the end of summer.

[WakinAZ]

I've owned two of these in the 3v version and played several others. Since yours has characteristics of both, you will have to be satisfied with 2341/(1241) as the model number. As far as resale, insurance documentation, parts, etc. most folks outside of the TubeNet Freak Jury are not even aware that there even *was* a 124X series that morphed into the (old) 234X series, so just tell the non-tuba geeks it's a c. 1981 King 2341, period. The pretzel in the third valve loop is supposed to be less good than the newer, straighter one, but I never noticed any stuffiness, etc. with King's original design or the closely related sousaphone with essentially the same valve set.

Your recording bell looks to be not original to the horn. Look on the bell collar and there will be a S/N on there that either will or will not match the one on the body. You can find upright bells for these pretty easily (but not cheaply), and then you have a indoor/outdoor all-purpose horn.

[WakinAZ]

... if I'm not able to get this one I should be able to buy one towards the end of summer.

These horns are widely available in the used market, sometimes even from gen-you-wine TubeNet sponsors, so don't fret too much if this particular one does not work out logistically. They are pretty consistently good players too.

[sloan]

' none of my business, but what exactly does

acquire it from my school

mean, and if

it plays great

why is it so important to

know what it is exactly

?

Some people value knowledge.

[gilmored]

Sloan, you MAY??? know the horn seeing how we're on the same campus.

[Dan Schultz]

Modern ways of amortizing the cost of things often leaves the value at zero after a prescribed period.... like perhaps ten years for music instruments and twenty years for buildings. It's often easier for schools to just scrap horns. In this area of the country, it seems that money is available to buy new more often than money is budgeted for repairs.

[sloan]

If this is a good instrument and has been paid for by taxpayers with the agreed purpose of serving students, why should that institution be able to sell it (as has been hinted at) "for a song"?

Please explain where you got the idea that someone "hinted at" purchasing the tuba "for a song"?

I've just reviewed the thread, and I can't find it.

Before you tilt at windmills, first be sure that you are in Holland.

[Dan Schultz]

Getting back on-topic.... I thought I should jump back in here and clarify some things about King serial numbers...

Earlier, I stated that the 'break point' for 124X/234X serial numbers is June 1980 with number 780900. That is assumed to be true unless there is a prefix before the serial number. Here's how it goes with a prefix:

Taken directly from the Allied parts catalog:
- From 1987 to 1995, the prefix number plus 50 gives you the year of manufacture.
- From 1996 to 2000, '5' predeeded the serial number.
- From 2001 onward the prefix was dropped entirely.

[ger]

Great Dan. I updated http://www.xs4all.nl/~marge/king_2340_bbb_tuba.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank with your info. Now, I've one tuba left with 1 as a prefix.....

[Dan Schultz]

Great Dan. I updated http://www.xs4all.nl/~marge/king_2340_bbb_tuba.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank with your info. Now, I've one tuba left with 1 as a prefix.....

Serial number 1-940668 on your web site is indeed 'interesting'. That horn.... with #1 on top, no curly-cue on the 3rd, and detachable bell that fits the description of a 2341. The serial number fits the 'after 780900' pattern. I think I would vote for the '1' being a mistake or some other form of ID. Maybe King messed up and put 940668 on two valvesets!

[gilmored]

Thanks Dan, this is the kind of stuff I feed on. I have really gotten into horns and repair work and I come here to try to pick up all that I can. It's a really great release from classes and practice when I need to get away.

[achmiedl]

Hey someone tell my friend here to save his money and get a better horn... The repair time and cost for this plus paying the school... It just doesn't add up. HAHA see I told you I would find you Dustin.

[sloan]

Are either of you guys showing up on Sunday?