Intermediate-level euph for doubling?

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:11 pm

O Esteemed TubeNet Colleagues,

I'm looking for recommendations for a decent (reasonably good tone and intonation characteristics) intermediate level euph for occasional small ensemble playing. It won't be my primary instrument, and it won't be played frequently. Hence, I don't want to spend a lot of cash on it -- say a target of less than $1000. I'll be looking for something used. I want an upright bell and 4 valves. I don't need compensating.

I've heard lots of good things about the YEP-321 -- about $2200 new at a well-known, Midwest outlet.

I also noticed that my "neighborhood brass outlet" sells a VMI 3171 euph with a price of about $1300 -- noticeably less than the Yamaha. Anyone know anything about this model?

I saw a couple of older (rough) Conn Connstellation Euphs on the famous auction site -- front action 4V with a cool adjusting rod for the main tuning slide. Is this worth considering?

How about a King (2280, I think?). I think I saw one of these listed used recently. IIRC, they have a 3rd valve trigger, which might be a nice feature.

Any other recommendations? Anything on TubeNet currently FS that I should know about?

Many thanks,

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:20 pm

I would check out the MW451 Mike Forbes has for sale in the "for sale" area.

He wants about $2500 for it.

It will meet your needs and not get in your way. I know it is kinda' expensive to your needs, but if your get tired of it you can sell it for basically the same cash.

It would be a 3+1 comp and have a large receiver. The bore is the same as the other big euphs and would probably feel more comfortable for a tuba player than some of the smaller offerings.

Those old Conn Connstelation euphs are nice. If you want to gauge how well they sound, check out track one on that old Philly/Cleveland/Chicago Gabrielli recording. There is no tuba on that track just Henry Charles Smith on an old Conn 5I or whatever the model number was, exactly the same as the Connstellation.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:21 pm

Also, consider the Weril H980--a Brazilian copy of the YEP-321, but with a bass shank receiver and about half the price. DEG is the US distributor:

http://www.weril.com/us/

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:47 pm

Steve Inman wrote:I'm looking for recommendations for a decent (reasonably good tone and intonation characteristics) intermediate level euph for occasional small ensemble playing. It won't be my primary instrument, and it won't be played frequently. Hence, I don't want to spend a lot of cash on it -- say a target of less than $1000. I'll be looking for something used. I want an upright bell and 4 valves. I don't need compensating.

Even new, the Weril satisfies all your requirements. I've played several at various times at Baltimore Brass, and I think they play (from the perspective of a tuba player) identically to the Yamaha. Unlike the Yamaha, they accept a large-shank mouthpiece without modification. I'm not sure that is a huge advantage in how it plays, but it will make a lot more mouthpieces available to you.

I have a Besson that I paid less for (in really battered but playable condition), but it requires due consideration on the intonation front, and it has that tuba-unfriendly side valve. For most euphonium playing, I think I'd prefer the Weril. I'd certainly prefer the Weril over most instruments you could buy for a grand, and I've never seen a nice-looking compensator in good condition in that price range. Even Yamahas get more in used condition. The Weril is a deal.

I use a euphonium for exactly the same thing you describe.

Rick "writing only from a tuba-player perspective" Denney

elimia · Post by **elimia** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:34 pm

You absolutely must look at the Weril. It is really close to the Yamaha in sound quality; the larger leadpipe opens up the sound a bit.

I've had one for a year and have no complaints. Give it a chance, you won't regret it. I got mine from Baltimore Brass Co.

Gorilla Tuba · Post by **Gorilla Tuba** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:52 pm

I play euphonium while teaching lessons, in a tuba-euph quartet, and occasionally with a band. I actually play a lot these days, though I am really a tubist.

In my experience with many horns, I am happiest and most successful playing a King 2280. I really like having the 3rd slide kicker. For me, it was the best non compensator out there.

In deciding what to get for myself (a very part-time euph player), I tried a lot of horns. I never liked my sound on the YEP321, although I admit not having tried it with very many mouthpieces due to not having many small shanks in my collection. I really liked the sound on the VMI non-comp, but could never play it in tune. Likewise with the Meinl Weston 451. I even tried the new Jupiter 3+1 model... it sounded pretty good, but was not easily played in tune.

I have not tried a Weril euph, but I did like the BBb 3/4 size Weril that I tried out a few years ago... I would seriously consider trying one of these.

For me, as I said, the King 2280 had the big sound I was looking for, decent pitch, and with the 3rd slide kicker, the ability to play B natural below the staff... not that I ever really need that note.

Honestly, the sweetest sounding euph I have played (and I own) is an anciet "Salvationist" 3+1 non comp horn I got on Ebay. The pitch is not too awful, but the valves are terrible and not financially worth improving.

Lastly, please take my recommendation from the vantage of a euph doubler. If I played euphonium regularly I would try to get a Hirschbrunner like I played in the Idaho National guard Band... it was a really great horn. But as a doubler, and a poor guy, the price of a professional compensating horn is not justified.

stardude82 · Post by **stardude82** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:06 pm

Bach 1101 are YEP-321 at about 2/3 the price. Holton Euph's might still be YEP-321s too and they go for about the same price as the Bach's last time I check. I picked a very nice one up on that famous web auction for $750 and thats what they typically sell for in general.

BTW I'm pretty sure Wilson and Weril are subsiduaries of Deg.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:06 am

stardude82 wrote:BTW I'm pretty sure Wilson and Weril are subsiduaries of Deg.

No. DEG is the U.S. distributor for both Willson and Weril, nothing more. Willson is a Swiss company, and Weril is a Brazilian company. If you bought them in other countries, DEG would have no involvement.

Rick "thinking it would be like saying that Hirsbrunner is a subsidiary of Custom Music" Denney

The Impaler · Post by **The Impaler** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:10 am

Steve,

You should think about contacting Custom music about the new Perantucci non-compensating euphs. I played one this summer at TBA in San Antonio, and was severely impressed by this horn. It's four valves upright, but large bore instead of small like the 321. Pretty reasonably priced (around $2000 brand new, I think), and a very quality horn. If my predecessor at my school hadn't just bought 2 new 321's last year, I would have purchased the PT's.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:21 am

Rick Denney wrote: Even new, the Weril satisfies all your requirements.

It's so refreshing to read posts from fellow engineers!

1. Determine requirements
2. Make proposal
3. etc...

Thanks,

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:25 am

The Impaler wrote:Steve,

You should think about contacting Custom music about the new Perantucci non-compensating euphs. I played one this summer at TBA in San Antonio, and was severely impressed by this horn. It's four valves upright, but large bore instead of small like the 321. Pretty reasonably priced (around $2000 brand new, I think), and a very quality horn. If my predecessor at my school hadn't just bought 2 new 321's last year, I would have purchased the PT's.

I also noticed the VMI non-comp euph that's about half of the PT price you quote, new at a well-known Indiana outlet. I do admit that a 300mm bell and a larger bore would fit my ideal sound more closely. But the $1000 price tag is the most firm requirment at the present time.

So, if you should hear of a USED one somewhere, I'm "in, man"!

Thanks,

The Impaler · Post by **The Impaler** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:37 am

So, if you should hear of a USED one somewhere, I'm "in, man"!

That's great. I think I'll try that sometime my*self*!

Chen · Post by **Chen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:18 pm

The standard is the 321. It will keep the best resale and plays very well for the money. Others may point to copies of it, but in the end, I'd spring for a 321. I bought a used one ($600, very good condition)

I just couldn't help notice that you got a used Yamaha 321 in good very condition for $600 but stated that the resale value is new while they cost $2000+ new.

Roger Lewis · Post by **Roger Lewis** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:54 pm

The YEP321 actually sells for quite a bit less if you give us a call. We have a certain price the we're allowed to advertise on Yamaha and Music Group products - it's not the real price.

I would vote for the King 2280 with the 3rd slide tuner and also because it has a large shank receiver = fewer changes.

Just my ramblings.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:14 pm

Roger Lewis wrote:The YEP321 actually sells for quite a bit less if you give us a call. We have a certain price the we're allowed to advertise on Yamaha and Music Group products - it's not the real price.

I would vote for the King 2280 with the 3rd slide tuner and also because it has a large shank receiver = fewer changes.

Just my ramblings.

Thanks, Roger.

I noticed WWBW also carries the VMI non-comp euph for a reasonable price. What are the intonation characteristics of this particular model? I think the larger bell and bore might be nice for a tubist.

Many thanks,

manatee · Post by **manatee** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:20 pm

Y'know, I have a Yamaha 201, and I find myself playing it more often than the 321. They go for a lot less, and if you are not serious, or running with 4th valve snobs, you and your bank will be happy. The one I have is silver, and it does make a difference. Very responsive.

elimia · Post by **elimia** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:34 am

If the cost is your major factor ($1,000), I'll sweeten the Weril on you once more: $1,080 brand new (lacquer model) with a nice case and a 6.5 AL knockoff mpc to boot + other accessories.

You can't beat that anywhere for a new non-comp. 4 valve euph with a solid sound. I tried an Allora (made by VMI) but was pretty disappointed with the tuning.

Shockwave · Post by **Shockwave** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:39 pm

Why is everyone so focused on new horns? They're so expensive and the old ones are better anyway. I've so far had nothing but good experiences with all old Olds, Reynolds, Martin, Conn, and King baritone/Euphoniums while I've had nothing but bad experiences with Miraphone, Willson, MW, and Yamaha. The new horns with the large mouthpiece receivers tend to play out of tune. My favorite is an old 3 valve Reynolds with the nifty dohickey for moving the tuning slide in and out. It's the best $80 I ever spent.

-Eric

TubeNet

Intermediate-level euph for doubling?

Intermediate-level euph for doubling?

Re: Intermediate-level euph for doubling?

Re: Intermediate-level euph for doubling?

Remember our discussion on MAP pricing?

How 'bout the VMI non-comp?