Pulling Slides

[jamsav]

Gentlemen- I happened to watch Mr Alan Baer earning his living on New Years eve with the NY Philharmonic . A magnificient orchestra at its best !!
During Gershwins' American In Paris , Mr Baer was pulling and pushing his main tuning slide like he had a trombone . I would consider Mr Baer to be one of the finest tubists in the world and he undoubtedly is performing on an instrument of great quality ( big MW orchestral CC I believe) . This all leads to the following questions- the small corrections he was making to slide length would only impact tone minimally , is this a more efficient method of minor correction to pitch as opposed to lipping into tune ? and /or are his skills and ear so evolved that he has to do this to be 100 % spot on . My amateur assumptions are that he's a great player with a great instrument that plays " in tune "- and that was "in tune "when it left the factory- so , why all the minor tweaking ? I 'm sure I am showing myself to be the hack that I am by asking this but I am curious of what others think and if this the ultimate standard that we should be holding ourselves to ?

[Tubadork]

Hey,

Mr Baer was pulling his 1st valve slide

He is one of the finest tubists

It was a MW6450 (prob handmade which would make it a MW6450/2)
http://www.melton.de/?id=116&iid=333&L=1" target="_blank

Slide would impact the tone slightly, lipping usually dramatically

He does play in tune, his ear is really evolved (trained maybe)

No tuba is 100% in tune when it leaves the factory because the overtone series does not follow equal temperment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music" target="_blank)
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html" target="_blank
http://music.ou.edu/applied/horn/intonation.html" target="_blank

Hope that helps,
Bill

[NDSPTuba]

I think as the quality of the group that you perform with goes up the more noticeable every little inaccuracy becomes. Every slight rhymic, dynamic, and intonation error sticks out. And lipping notes will usually come with a bit of a slide into tune from where ever it started and in a group of that quality that would stick out like a sore thumb. So Mr. Baer does what any great pro would do. He is so intimately aware of where each note on his instrument tends to be that he knows exactly what to do to make each and every note be as spot on as possible.

Though I was never at that level, I do remember when I was playing professionally as a horn player. Playing with amatuer groups would always be very frustrating because I never felt like I could hear exactly what I was doing. I believe it was because there was enough inaccurate playing going on around me that any slight blemishes in my playing blended in and became increasing hard to recognize as mine or someone elses. The professional groups I played with where much easier to play with because I could always hear everything I did. I tried to avoid playing with the amatuer groups because it literally took me some time to get back to playing at a professional level after playing with amatuer groups. I called it getting my ears back on. I got the same negative effect from teaching lessons which is why I quit teaching lessons while I was playing.

Anyway, i guess what I'm saying is the higher quality groups you play with the more you will notice a need to do that same as Mr Baer is doing, to match the level of the players around you. And it really takes "getting your ears on" to recognize it.

[Wyvern]

Mr Baer was pulling his 1st valve slide

I have never been a slide puller (tending to lip as is usual in the UK), so ask this out of interest.

We often read about pulling the 1st slide. Why that particular slide? Why not have a trigger on the main tuning slide to be able to adjust any note?

[sloan]

Hey,

Mr Baer was pulling his 1st valve slide

He is one of the finest tubists

It was a MW6450 (prob handmade which would make it a MW6450/2)
http://www.melton.de/?id=116&iid=333&L=1" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Slide would impact the tone slightly, lipping usually dramatically

He does play in tune, his ear is really evolved (trained maybe)

No tuba is 100% in tune when it leaves the factory because the overtone series does not follow equal temperment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank)
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://music.ou.edu/applied/horn/intonation.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Hope that helps,
Bill

I'm curious:

a) what temperment do you think a professional tubist plays in to play "in tune" with the rest of an orchestra?
b) what do you think the "overtone series" of a tuba is?

HINTS: the answer to a) is probably NOT "equal temperment"
the answer to a) is probably NOT "the harmonic sequence"

[Tubadork]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQR9bw-4R08" target="_blank


My last post on this issue,
Bill

[Bob Kolada]

It really what you're used to. I have played with several magnificent players who never touch a slide and have fantastic intonation.

We often read about pulling the 1st slide. Why that particular slide? Why not have a trigger on the main tuning slide to be able to adjust any note?

Because tuba players are wusses! You can probably use the 1st slide to mess with more notes than any other valve slide and admittedly it is simpler at first to not use the main slide, but a usable, comfortable main slide would be sweet. I will try to slot some things, but at a certain point it can make it hard to play music (depending on your tuba's intonation).
Ideally my perfect horn would have really good intonation, a usable main slide for short valve combos/ensemble tuning/.... and a long 4th slide for the low range.

But on the other hand I did get to see Marty Erickson play an Eb scale using NO valves at all, so...

[MartyNeilan]

[gregsundt]

Knowing Alan Baer only by reputation, he is undoubtedly one of the hardest working musicians out there. As he was developing his skills and preparing for the NYP audition, he had (has?) a daily tone/intonation routine that we would all do well to emulate. Anyone who can expand on this with a link or article, please do.

As a tubist by training who currently plays and teaches trombone, I have gained a valuable persepctive. Trombonists rarely even consider "lipping" a note. For one thing, the straight cylinder with little or no valve resistance is much more sensitive to embouchure changes. Secondly, there are good, workable alternate positions on the slide for every "problem" note. If Alan Baer has found good, workable slide adjustments for every one of his problem notes, this helps explain his preeminence among orchestral tubists. To the degree the rest of us can emulate his effort, we will improve our results.

[Rick Denney]

B - This shows perfectly the harmonic series of a CC tuba, AND gives the difference in pitch between the harmonic series and equal temperament.


Any questions? No? Good.

Here's a question: What C tuba plays that series?

Answer: None.

The reason is that the series is based on assumptions arising from strings or straight tubing, not from a conical-bore instrument. The conical bore is quite capable of looking like an instrument and playing a series utterly unlike anything musically useful. For example, the wavelength of the tone actually increases as the bore increases, and the rate of change of that wavelength changes with the rate of change of the bore. It's a wonder any of them can play a musically useful series, or have upper intervals that fall in the same musical series as lower intervals.

And then there's the complex effect of that that big impedance matching device at the end of the tube called the bell.

One thing I've learned is that any attempt to simplify the acoustics of a tuba result in unmanageable distortions, where the simple model predicts one thing and the tuba does another.

To answer the original question:

1. A tuba stacks up its overtones best when the player is buzzing the precise frequency that resonates in the bugle. A player can buzz a different frequency, but in so doing will cause an impedance mismatch that will force some of overtones to drop off, which muddies or otherwise modifies the tone. Adjusting the length of the bugle so that it exactly resonates the buzz frequency provides the best possible sound.

2. Players not of the very best caliber don't produce all those overtones in any case, because their embouchure isn't providing a good impedance match with the mouthpiece and tuba even when the frequency is correct. They see less of an effect on tone when they buzz a slightly non-resonant frequency. Important note: Many very, very fine players fit in this category, and maybe normal humanoids can't hear the effect in any case.

3. Some tubas might be more broadbanded than other tubas, in that they can resonate a range of frequencies without a noticeable effect on overtone production. These tubas can be lipped more easily without affecting the tone. The CSO York is a known example of this effect, based on some reports of those who have played it.

4. The very best players buzz the exactly correct frequency because of several reasons: a.) they hear the same pitch in their heads as their mates, because they have all rehearsed together and fully understand each other, b.) they hear the same pitch in their heads because they have all been trained to hear the same pitch for a given note in a given context, and c.) they have strong enough chops and the vast experience required to buzz the pitch in their head accurately, every time. Thus, they don't slide into the correct frequency, unless something unexpected happens. They are already there. This also leads to the conclusion that they know what they need to do to achieve those frequencies, either in terms of lipping or slide adjustments. Yes, they learn those slide movements to the point where they are as automatic as pushing the right valve buttons. That in no way undermines their responsibility (and ability) to make further adjustments based on what they hear. The point of this item, though, is that they hear the correct pitch before they play it, because of their experience both with the music and with their mates. They play based on their ability to hear, but they do most of their hearing before the performance.

5. Most funky notes on tubas involve combinations of valves, and most combinations include the first valve. Also, the construction of most tubas puts the first valve ready to hand. So, it's possible to manage most instruments using the first valve slide. But there are many examples of tuning main slides instead of first-valve slides, using either triggers or designing the instrument--as Marzan did--to put the main slide in a convenient spot.

Rick "organs are not always like tubas" Denney

[Toobist]

I think we should all just direct our questions to Rick. Great post Rick! Keep those coming! Excellent and succinct info!

[windshieldbug]

Rick, as usual, hit the nail on the head: at that level of performance one adjusts the length of the horn for the best resonance, not to adjust pitch. Why? Because one's chops are sufficiently built up to make the pitch (in any temperament desired) exactly what it needs to be.

[Art Hovey]

"Most combinations involve the first valve."

I have always wondered about that claim. How many times do you use the first valve when you play an E scale on a four-valve BBb tuba? -And which of those notes are likely to need tweaking?

I suspect that many tubists use the first slide (a) because it is easy to reach (on some tubas) and (b) because trumpet players use the first slide, so it must be the right thing to do.

Personally, I find the second and fourth slides to be the most useful ones if they are accessible.

[tubashaman2]

.

[sloan]

I'm curious:

a) what temperment do you think a professional tubist plays in to play "in tune" with the rest of an orchestra?
b) what do you think the "overtone series" of a tuba is?

HINTS: the answer to a) is probably NOT "equal temperment"
the answer to a) is probably NOT "the harmonic sequence"

A - Temperament is only worth mentioning with speaking of a fixed pitch instrument. (Organ, piano, etc)
For everything else, it is the most basic form of 'just' tuning, which means everyone tries to eliminate the beats no matter the chord.

+1

B - This shows perfectly the harmonic series of a CC tuba, AND gives the difference in pitch between the harmonic series and equal temperament.


Any questions? No? Good.

-1

The notes shown have nothing to do with a TUBA (or any particular instrument). They are frequencies mapped onto note names. Tubas don't have a "harmonic series". Instead, tubas have "partials". With luck, and good design, many of the partials come close to members of a particular harmonic series. [see: Chinese tubas]

One way to look at this is that the harmonic series is the specification and the partials are the implementation.

But...if you build a "tuba-like object", there is no reason at all to believe that its partials will come anywhere close to a harmonic series.

Unless, of course, that "tuba-like object" is played by an extraordinary player, who can take the resonances offered by the instrument and move them around so that they end up in the right place. [see: Alexander; Besson]

questions? There's an infinite supply of questions! "no questions" is the worst possible outcome!

[tubatom91]

it seems to me that tone comes with pitch.

[Rick Denney]

I have always wondered about that claim. How many times do you use the first valve when you play an E scale on a four-valve BBb tuba? -And which of those notes are likely to need tweaking?

Art, Art, Art. Two points:

1. I play in a community band. I don't ever see the E scale. I wouldn't know what to do with it if I did.

2. Mr. Baer was reportedly using the first valve only, and one assumes that he was doing so because it was fulfilling his requirements at the time. It may be that for that instrument, the combinations and notes that need adjustment use the first valve. It may be be that such was the case for the particular piece of music being played. I doubt it was because that's what trumpet players do.

By the way, are you coming to Fort Myer? If so, you can thump me in person, heh.

Rick "figuring most tuba players lip in addition to moving slides in any case" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

Alan Baer wrote on here a while ago what pulls he used on his 1291. Among them were quite a few 4th pulls (preferred 24 over 523, low range) and I believe a few 23 though I am not sure about that nor do I believe a 1291 needs them.

[MileMarkerZero]

A teacher once told me not to pull for pitch, pull for tone. If you are producing a resonant, full tone on a given pitch, 9 times out of 10 it'll also be in tune. To relate that back to Rick's post, that's because you don't have to change the tone quality by lipping the note and dropping off some of those overtones that are so important to the tone quality.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

So, are you "pull for tone" folks saying that whenever the tuba is most resonant that's where it is in tune?

Doesn't seem to jive with what we know about the intonation tendencies of partials or valve combinations. The theory also doesn't make much sense in the world of western harmony where pitches must be adjusted as much as 15 cents to be in tune with a chord, either...how does the tuba "know"?

I would suggest that part of being a really good tuba player is learning how to make the instrument resonate with a great sound even when you have to play a pitch sharp or flat from where it's centered on the tuba.