Pulling Slides

[ThomasP]

I leave all my slides pushed all the way in because the tuba was designed to play best with that set up.

And then any intonation problems I blame on the people around me. I'm the tuba player, any band director worth their weight in salt will tell you that you listen DOWN in the ensemble!

[windshieldbug]

So, are you "pull for tone" folks saying that whenever the tuba is most resonant that's where it is in tune?

Yes.

Doesn't seem to jive with what we know about the intonation tendencies of partials or valve combinations. The theory also doesn't make much sense in the world of western harmony where pitches must be adjusted as much as 15 cents to be in tune with a chord, either

The difference is in the state of development of your chops. The people we are talking about are able to play 5+ hours a day at maximum performance.

I played with a bass trombone player that would exclaim, "My slide is broken! What should I do!?" and then play the same pitch while moving the slide it's full length in and out.

There is no question that pulling slides to affect intonation (and therefor resonance) is effective and necessary for players at one end of the experience/application scale.

Looking at an accomplished player like Mr. Baer with that sort of assumption leads one to an incorrect conclusion, however.

At some point the effective teacher will reach a point where a change in perspective is necessary to progress to the next level of playing.

Trumpet playing has been referenced, and that IS a close parallel.

At one time trumpets/cornets did not have any movable slides or triggers. Did accomplished players play less in tune? No, but the third slide was made fractionally longer to provide a more average length for resonance. Then came the third slide. People found that it was easier to play in tune when you adjusted the length to your chops and not vice-versa. So the third slide was shortened, and a first saddle/trigger was added to make it easier to adjust first only notes (and as a consequence one-three and one-two-three combinations).

Soprano players were just getting the capabilities that rotary contrabass players had had all along.

But make no mistake, it is NOT easy to get to a resonance-only level.

[Rick Denney]

Rick "organs are not always like tubas" Denney

I have never said, nor implied that they are.

Hmmm. You are an organ builder and expert, and you proposed a list of tuning anomalies based on a harmonic series that is characteristic of a straight tube's resonance spectrum. You'll pardon me for having seen implication where you intended none.

But just because we argued against your list doesn't mean we argued against your point, which is that no tuba plays every note in tune, even if tuning to a fixed keyboard instrument of whatever temperament.

Rick "all models are false, but some are useful" Denney

[jonesbrass]

Just play the darn thing. Pull, push, lip whatever you want. Play out of tune often enough, in the wrong situation and YOU'RE FIRED!!

[Ken Herrick]

Solder your slides in place and make everyone else tune to you.
Next.

Robert Coulter

I know of a HS band baton swinger who "tuned" all the brass to a concert Bb, had all the players leave their instruments at their chairs, then went around and soldered all the tuning slides in place. he couldn't figure out why they sounded less than glorious at the next rehearsal!!!!!!!!

I leave all my slides pushed all the way in because the tuba was designed to play best with that set up.

And then any intonation problems I blame on the people around me. I'm the tuba player, any band director worth their weight in salt will tell you that you listen DOWN in the ensemble!

Yep, "His Majesty the Tuba" MUST rule..........well, maybe if there is only one and he is pretty ...........good. And of course every tuba comes from the factory perfectly in tune and that organ player and piano player better get used to matching the tuba's tuning as well. Maybe "Tuben" will invent a way to make individual pipes "tuneable" dependent on the pressure exerted on the keys -OR- make an advanced facial recognition system so the organist can lip things in tune by screwing up his face in front of the mirror so many big organs have just above the console. Oh, by the way, I think it is terribly rude of those mirror fixated organists to sit with their backs turned to the audience!

I have heard a rumour that some instrument makers build instruments with slides intentionally made a bit short so as to give the player some extra latitude in tuning. Probably just another unfounded rumour though..........

Just my opinion here.....

Ensemble playing is all about co-operating to produce the best possible music and a big part of that is playing in tune with a good sound which requires all involved using those things sticking out from the sides of their heads and compromising as needed.

[tubashaman2]

.

[sloan]

"Pull for tone, not for pitch" - explained:

Brass players come in two flavors:

a) mash the right buttons, buzz a broadband noise roughly in the right neighborhood, and let the horn select the pitch

b) mash the right buttons, buzz the precise desired pitch, and let the horn select
the quality of the resulting complex sound.

Players of type a) need to pull slides to play "in tune".

Players of type b) need to pull slides to play "with a glorious sound NEARLY imperceptibly better than if they didn't".

Me? I have tin ears, and I'm still working on tone issues that are two orders of magnitude more important than a 2" pull. So, I remove tuning slide kickers, and have bloke cut the brass so it works for me. And, I play in ensembles where I'm usually less than 1 stdDev away from the pitch center. So, I have exactly 1 "pull" in my repertoire (pull #1 for low Eb). And, sad to say, I pull there for pitch. Not that it (usually) matters.

[Dylan King]

I tune my CC tubas so that I only have to manipulate the first valve slide. It becomes natural after a while, and I know subconsciously how much to pull on certain notes. On my Yorkbrunner I pull out on low A (1-2) and center-line D and Db are pushes. Other notes have very minor movement, but I think I pull and push miniscule amounts for most notes involving the first valve.

I would prefer to have the main bugle tuning slide available to pull, and if that was the case, I would tune each individual valve differently than I have them set now. I suppose the first valve became the pull valve for me because of its location.

The 291 is so well in tune I really don't have to pull at all, but am so used to it that I still do minor adjustments while I'm playing. I would like to get some of those rubber ring bumpers for the first valve slide on the 291 (if anyone knows where, let me know). It is a little more difficult to get to the first valve slide than the Yorkbrunner, but is still pretty easy to reach. My 621-F takes no slide pulling at all, as it plays very well in tune as well, but if I could reach the slide, I would pull the first in a bit every time I play the top-space G.

I suppose that slide pulling gives the tubist a little bit of the fine tuning a trombonist has. As has been discussed before, it seems to me that it's mostly for centering and tone, which go together. French horn players are constantly manipulating their right hand inside the bell, for similar reasons, and trumpet players pull their fist and third slides frequently. Violinists know that just the smallest movement of the finger can change the pitch, and they do it without thinking most of the time to adjust. I think what we do isn't all that much different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_KPibdZ47g

[TUBAD83]

Just play the darn thing. Pull, push, lip whatever you want. Play out of tune often enough, in the wrong situation and YOU'RE FIRED!!

Agree totally with Mr. Jones. Neither of my teachers were fans of this pulling/pushing slides business--I would find that an annoying distraction and, to be honest, I find it distracting to sit next to someone who is constantly moving his slide (which has the effect of changing the intonation of the section when the person over compensates). Out of the 3 ensembles I perform in, only two tubists are "puller/pushers"--unfortunately they don't do it very well and tends to cause more problems than it solves. I get the impression that this is mainly a CC tuba issue (the vast majority of pullers I have known played CC horns). BBb tubas most certainly have their intonation issues but I think they're easier to handle by lipping and using alternate fingerings.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

"Pull for tone, not for pitch" - explained:

Brass players come in two flavors:

a) mash the right buttons, buzz a broadband noise roughly in the right neighborhood, and let the horn select the pitch

b) mash the right buttons, buzz the precise desired pitch, and let the horn select
the quality of the resulting complex sound.

Players of type a) need to pull slides to play "in tune".

Players of type b) need to pull slides to play "with a glorious sound NEARLY imperceptibly better than if they didn't".

This makes a great deal of sense. Thanks. For the record, I'm a first-valve slide pull guy...for pitch. D and Db in the middle of the staff in particular, and a bit of pull on Es and Fs.

[tofu]

I would like to get some of those rubber ring bumpers for the first valve slide on the 291 (if anyone knows where, let me know).

Dylan,

Those are rubber O rings - readily available at any hardware store like ACE - they are very cheap - like 15-20 cents - so you can probably do all your horns for a couple bucks.

[oedipoes]

A Yamaha YBB321 is not made to be able to reach the slides, so I don't...
On my future Willson 4th and 1st slide are reachable, so I'll have to try how it plays best.

Wim

[jamsav]

What a gift to be able to reach into this community and get such a generous and helpful response . Mssrs. Denney, Hovey , Sloan etals. have given me greater understanding and clarity regarding exactly what my next move as a musician should be.
My horns are now all for sale and I'll be standing amongst the percussionists at my next rehearsal !! Thanks guys= jamsav
see you in Virginia

[Ken Herrick]

My horns are now all for sale and I'll be standing amongst the percussionists at my next rehearsal !! Thanks guys= jamsav
see you in Virginia

What?
(Iwill try to refrain from over using """""" or CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSSSS for fear of loosing my audience damn, i only thought i had one of those if i were performing

Anyway - do you just want to be a musicians labourer???????????

Maybe, just maybe, some people might realise that music is expressing some deep inner feeling so that somebody else feels better for having been near enough to be able to share that feeling.

KISS

Prolllly the best musical essperience I ever had was some years ago conducting a little community band just before I left that town. They were pretty awful in a lot of ways but they wanted to "make music' (the members ranged from grade 7 to old folk) They had "Aura Lea" in the folder and had managed to make it sound like "Agony Wee".

I asked them to think of it as the love song they would sing to their number one love of their life just before they died and swap that love song between them. They did it.

Absolutely spine tingling.

Your job as a "musician" is to make other people feel better.

[jamsav]

Oh God No Ken- as per a previous post, I struggle with sarcasm....I will continue to be a mediocre horn tooter for as long as I can breath....It is humbling to witness the heights that accomplished players have attained . IMHO , I am a pretty good player- there isnt much in standard band or orchestral repertiore that I can't figure out and cover reasonably well. But when you see playing raised to " art " it is truly impressive. When you log into this forum and experience the depth of knowledge that this community has , well , frankly, like the toupe on the head of the f horn player sitting in front of the BAT ,I am blown away....

[MartyNeilan]

My 621-F takes no slide pulling at all, as it plays very well in tune as well, but if I could reach the slide, I would pull the first in a bit every time I play the top-space G.

When I had my 621 F, I had a ring soldered to the side (not top) of the 1st crook for that very reason. It was easy to slip the middle finger of my left hand in there while still having a good hold on the tuba. I have periodically seen pictures of that tuba on tubenet; can't miss it because of the ring.

[windshieldbug]

Intro to brass quintet concert:

"We've suffered for our art. Now, it's your turn!"

[MartyNeilan]

Intro to brass quintet concert:

"We've suffered for our art. Now, it's your turn!"

You sure that wasn't a tuba/euph quartet concert?

[windshieldbug]

Intro to brass quintet concert:

"We've suffered for our art. Now, it's your turn!"

You sure that wasn't a tuba/euph quartet concert?

No, the Principal and second Trumpet always became those nose-up smilies whenever I suggested it...

[Bill Troiano]

"After well over quarter century of moving away from CC tubas with easy intonation towards tubas with sketchy intonation, I have moved back the other way. My left hand's function now (again, after all these years) is to hold and balance the tuba...It is surprising how many "ergonomic" issues evaporate when one's left hand can simply be used for this function."

I don't seem to know how to use the quote feature, but ditto what Bloke said earlier. That's one of the reasons I like my Gnagey tuba so much.