Leaky old horn

[vintage7512]

How hard is it to fix a horn with bad compression. The horn has great intonation - a Besson 3 valve compensator - but is airy and has little or no pop when pulling out slides. Is this a difficult problem? I am guessing it is, but I am hoping some of the techs out there can let me know. I just had a standard size receiver put on and the valves realigned, but the horn is still lacking. I am using too much air for the sound fullness I am getting - sounds thin and airy.

[TUbajohn20J]

SAme thing happened to my 20J when I first got it. I had a water test done on it, identified the leaks, and them fixed. Also I had a valve job done and that helped A LOT! Anderson plating did the valves. It plays like new now

[bort]

Steve --

How old is the horn?
Which valves? (all of them?)
Have you tried a more viscous oil? (Hetman classic maybe?)

Also assuming the spit valves are good?

[vintage7512]

The horn is a 'New Standard' 3 valve satin silver. I would guess the vintage to be 50's, but haven't researched it. I really appreciate the help from you all. If I just had 3-4 K I would just get what I know I'd like, but am going this route for money reasons. I will check out the horn using methods discussed here when I get snowed in this weekend and have the time. I hate to think the valve alignment and new receiver I just had done by the BBC will be wasted work, but if I can't get more bite out of this horn (better articulation) I won't be able to use it. Let you know. Steve

[bort]

Did you ask BBC about the leak when you took it in? The alignment isn't a wasted cost, that's always a good thing to have in place.

Another thought -- if it all around plays like crap now... are the right valves in the right casings? (Being serious, not a smartass. I've done this before. )

[vintage7512]

I would have thought that would be obvious as it shouldn't play at all, but I will try them in different casings just to be sure. The horn plays the notes, and in tune, it just doesn't give me much for my effort of air, and it leaks water from somewhere. Maybe a valve, but maybe a leak. Have to spend some time and figure it out. From what I've heard on these forums, this horn should play better than this. let you know what I can determine.

[imperialbari]

The third piston is easily recognizable as it has fewer ports than the two first pistons.

Klaus

[termite]

Hi vintage 7512

I have a Boosey&Hawkes Imperial three valve compensating BBb which is probably very similar to your New Standard and I also have a Miraphone 1291BBb.

The Imperial does not have the same bite as the Miraphone. If you listen to recordings of British brass bands you will hear the dull-fundamental-only sound the BBb's make. This is the British brass band Bbb sound and it is what these instruments are designed to make. If you want a vibrant, sparkling "straight throught the horn" American sound you need a different instrument.

When I was younger these were the only tubas I could get my hands on besides the Yamaha 321 BBb. (I'm in Melbourne Australia where most of the tubas you guys take for granted - 186, big old Conns etc. are unheard of). It was a great moment for me when I was finally able to get my Miraphone by having it sent over from the US. After many years of frustration I could finally start heading towards the sound that I'd had in my head for so many years.

I find that the Imperial takes more air than the 1291 despite being a smaller instrument and gives almost nothing back in return. The British players who get such a huge yet dull sound on these things tend to be very large men well over six feet tall. Many people wonder what these super-humans would sound like on a large open blowing German tuba.

I'm not allowed to use the "S" word (stuffy) here but I have to say that British tubas are not always open blowing.

This is my opinion only but it is based on many years of playing quite a number of three valve British BBbs in brass bands. I still remember the first time I heard a rotary Miraphone in the flesh (also the moment I discovered that such things existed) - it blew my mind - I thought "this is what a tuba is meant to sound like - not what I've been listening up to now".

Regards

Gerard

[vintage7512]

I have been playing a VERY beat up old King 2341 with a bent mismatched upright bell and it has a much more soloistic sound than this Besson. I can't play with any precision on the Besson in comparison, and I am doing almost all quintet these days having switched to euph in the concert band I play with, so the Besson may have to go. I will play it alot over the weekend and try some of the compression fixes and make sure it is not just an adjustment on my part. Just in case, what is one of these worth in good shape, satin silver, ball removed, with the usual small dents but few or no large ones?

[iiipopes]

I have a 1971 Besson New Standard 3-valve comp in lacquer, or what's left of the lacquer. As quoted above, the leaks are easy. Just have your tech find them and resolder them. That is cost effective, as otherwise the horn would be almost totally unplayable. However, the compensating pistons, being doubly long, require care. To do it right, everything must be dissassembled. Then the bores have to be trued. This usually means they end up bored out a couple to a few thou oversized. Then the pistons have to be turned and trued. Then they are copper plated, then nickel plated to slightly oversized, then turned and trued again, and lapped into place and fit. So you could possibly put more into a valve job than the horn is worth as it sits, and would only be worth @ $100 more when you get it all done.

In the meantime, take a one-ounce bottle of your favorite non-synthetic valve oil, add a few drops of pharmacy grade mineral oil, shake it up to mix it well, and try that to "fill up" the wear between the valves and the casings. You might need only a couple of small drops, or you might need a little more that the resulting mix verges on slowing down the pistons. Stop adding mineral oil before you get to that point. On the 38K, the valves are so worn they are almost completely copper with very few streaks of nickel plating left. I do this for the 38K valves and they play fine, and it costs only a fraction of a bottle of "Hetman's Classic."