Holton 345 with new Kantsul Bell

[Roger Fjeldet]

I understand that a couple of 345`s with repalcement bells from Kantsul have been shown at the Capitol Tuba Conference
Have any of the Tubanet forum users played one of these instruments, and what was the experience?
If someone has taken a photo, would it be possible to show it in this topic?
Roger

[EdFirth]

I had the good fortune to play on Bob Carpenter's Holton before and after he got the Kanstul bell as well as hear him play it before and after. When I was with the West Point band in the early 70's they still had an old set of King tubas which were almost identical to the present model and I played on one of them for most of my time there.They had this really dark sound, very "Jake like" that I didn't get on anything else there. When I tried new Kings(at that time) they sounded thinner and brighter although they blew fine. They also got a Boehm Meinl that was shaped like the old Kings but that was where the resemblence ended. Bob's Holton always was a great horn but it didn't sound like the York it was a copy of. The sound was huge but not deep like the sound Jake got on the Reiner "pictures" recording or the Kubileck "pictures" recording. When he got the new bell put on it was like the lower part of the sound woke up. In the hall it is a commanding voice rather than a presence and when I played it the notes slot more easily for me. I think Mr Kanstul has unlocked the mystery of the York sound and the beautifully crafted Hirsbrunners, Nirschls, Meinl Westons that are based on the big York can now sound like one too. Ed

[Roger Fjeldet]

I wonder what creates that difference; Is it the thickness of the metal, the metal itself or the shape of the bell?
Or is the bell fitted different with less contact to the rest of the body?
Anyway - very interesting.
Roger

[EdFirth]

The dimensions are the same as the original bell and it's soldered on the same way. I think it's the Composition of the brass. When you flip your finger on it , it sounds different than other bells.Kind of like guys putting York bells and bottom bows on other big hog tubas and them sounding better. I guess there can be alot of variables in brass and the stuff York used was unusual. Like when some say that Stradavarias violins sound different because of the wood. Bob's horn is at the Army thing now so there should be some more feedback soon. There is, I think, also a York Master with a Kanstul bell as well as the original. There are obviously alot of other factors in the equation but I haven't heard anything about other manufacturers beyond red versus gold brass. Mabye someone will put a clip of Bob playing it on you Tube. Ed

[iiipopes]

I wonder what creates that difference; Is it the thickness of the metal, the metal itself or the shape of the bell?
Or is the bell fitted different with less contact to the rest of the body?
Anyway - very interesting.
Roger

Yes. E: all the above.

[Mitch]

What are the chances we could get some pictures of Bob Carpenter's Holton/Kanstul?

[Roger Fjeldet]

What are the chances we could get some pictures of Bob Carpenter's Holton/Kanstul?

I join that request

Roger

[Tubawaves]

Hello!
I am posting a couple photos of my Holton/Kanstul. We completely rebuilt the tuba in November. Note in the photo that the 5th valve tubing is missing – it did not fit after the rebuild and has to be redesigned..no big deal. This pic as taken immediately after rebuilding...not clean and shiny yet (it is now!). The construction is now very close to the Chicago Yorks, which was the purpose of the rebuild. It is now an outstanding tuba – easy to play, even, in tune, and has stunning presence in the hall. My Holton, with the original bell, always provided good feedback to the player, but the sound was not clear and powerful in the audience (with the original Holton bell, it was “poofy” or “muddy” – or lost). After the change to the Kanstul bell, the sound in the hall became startlingly powerful and clear, with the big “York sound”. It also complements the other instruments, providing a good set of harmonics and clarity, enhancing the string bass section...Zig Kanstul has done something wonderful. Ed’s comments above are quite valid, as he was there with me during part of the invaluable testing with orchestra (thank you Ed!).

Thanks,
Bob Carpenter

rebuilt-1.jpg

Box of parts.jpg

rear view Holton-Kanstul.jpg

[The Big Ben]

Nice to have options when working with these horns.

[Bob Kolada]

Is that Holton a Bb or a C?

[k001k47]

WHOA are those jellybeans in the background?!

[Rick Denney]

I have several pictures of these that I will post in due time. I'm changing jobs so my time is extremely limited at the moment.

I played them all and compared them in some detail.

Here are the instruments I compared:

1. My Holton BB -345--a good one, dating from 1970. The bell has been rolled out several times, so there is some work hardening in the bell. In all respects except appearance, it's tip-top.

2. A "new" Holton BB-345--this instrument was a show instrument for Holton during the late 70's, and the guess is that it was made from one of the last batches, maybe around 1977 or 1978. It is in original condition and has never been played regularly. There are only a very few dings on the instrument, so I think it represents what Holton intended (or at least what that particular technician intended) at the time. I took many pictures of this instrument to show the difference in construction between it and mine--and there were many differences, some of which were quite surprising.

3. A BB-345 that had been rewrapped to bring the valve body into the instrument more. Note that nothing was changed in the major branches, and I think the only changed part was the dogleg. The leadpipe was at least modified, but maybe its owner (Tom Treece) also made a new one. It had a Kanstul bell.

4. Bob Carpenter's Holton CC-345, which he also rewrapped to make it more comfortable to play. He also installed a Kanstul bell. This wasn't actually part of my comparison, but it was there and we all played it.

Bob is also an engineer in addition to being a fine professional tuba player, and he and I engaged in quite an engineer-geek conversation. I gather that the main difference with the Kanstul bell is the metallurgy and the hardening process, which Bob and Tom Treece developed with Zig Kanstul during the creation of Kanstul's new 4/4 York-replica Bb and Eb tubas. Kanstul had apprenticed with F. A. Reynolds, who apprenticed with Pop Johnson (the designer of the CSO York), and Reynolds had kept a diary that is now in Kanstul's possession. Bob and Tom, in working with Kanstul, had brought up issues that forced Kanstul to dig up those notes, or so the story was related to me. If so, then this is a real connection to some important technology, which Kanstul now keeps to himself as a trade secret, though I hope he'll write it down so that it can be passed to the next generation.

As Joe describes, the color of the brass looks different than the original yellow cartridge brass of earlier American instruments, with a distinctly copperish hue.

In any case--the comparison. I played the three Bb tubas side-by-side for an extended period during a time when the Elephant Room was fairly quiet, and also listened while Bob played them. Several of us were present for this comparison. We did not evaluate intonation, which is a major issue with these tubas. But we did evaluate the sound and playability--though the sound was only at close range. A better test would have been to compare them in a hall. Bob's complaint about his CC was that it didn't get out in a hall as effectively as it seemed from the player's perspective, which motivated the research into the bell that resulted in the Kanstul replacement.

With me playing, I found mine to be the most playable followed closely by Tom's modified Holton with the Kanstul bell. The stock Holton was not quite as playable as either. Mine had an open feel and a good scale, in particular (at least by big-tuba standards). Bob preferred the Kanstul-belled Bb Holton over mine, but seemed to think the difference pretty subtle. The stock Holton was a good big tuba and in outstanding condition, and it played better than many Holtons I've played over the years. But I still preferred mine and so did others to compared them.

The Kanstul-belled instruments had a subtly different tone at close range, with perhaps a little less color and a bit more core, to my ears. That difference would come down to preference, and need to be evaluated in a hall to make any useful value judgments. We all walked away preferring our own instruments, which probably reflects our own bias in favor of what we are accustomed to. I am prepared to say this much with confidence: The Kanstul bells are a completely viable replacement bell for big tubas, and that alone is a valuable contribution to what is available. For many instruments, they may represent a significant improvement.

A more interesting revelation on the subject of Kanstul bells, though, was in comparing replacement bells on my York Master. I have both the bells for my York Master, and brought it in with the upright bell to compare it with the Kanstul replacement bells and also with an original York Model 712 bell that had been cut and fitted with a collar to mount on the instrument. The York bell showed signs of having been brought back from ruinous death, with about a million hammer marks from having been restored to its original shape.

The Kanstul is a direct shape copy of the York 4/4 bell, and both have a diameter of 19 inches. The York Master bell has a slightly narrower throat right at the knee of the flare, and it's 20 inches in diameter. The Kanstul is the same coppery alloy used in the bells on the Holtons, with the same hardening treatments. The York bell was a light yellow, made more so by the satin results of all that working. My original B&M-made York Master bell is unlacquered yellow brass of a deeper yellow hue than the old York bell. It probably was deeper in hue because of a bit of tarnish.

The Kanstul bell had a slightly more open sound than the original bell, and noticeably more core without any loss in color. Is it an improvement worth making? I'm still pondering that (the price of the bell is over a thousand bucks), but I'm not rejecting the idea on the face of it, even for an instrument I don't play that often. The slightly smaller bell with the slightly wider throat seemed an improvement.

But, despite all my beliefs, the bell metallurgy seems to have an effect I cannot deny. To my eyes and hands, the Kanstul bell was identical to the old York bell. But the old York bell was absolutely dead in the middle of the range--just dead. Something about the condition of the brass--perhaps it was annealed too much, or maybe it's cracked from all that working (though I saw no cracking), but on the bottom half of the staff it was almost like someone had installed a leaky water key.

One possibility is the bell ring interface, which must provide a good seal. The Kanstul bells are cut slightly large to allow sanding to fit each instrument--any leak at this interface will change the impedance of the instrument at some frequencies at least. Maybe the old York bell didn't fit well enough. But it is forcing me to rethink a lot of issues--the differences were not subtle. The Kanstul bell would have needed just at touch of sanding for my York Master--it was only about 1/8" shy of inserting fully.

I'll do a writeup on my web page with some pictures when I get the chance.

Rick "who thought the Kanstul top-action 4/4 York-replica Bb tubas were pretty impressive--stuff's happening at Kanstul" Denney

[bigbob]

Hi , I want to thank the gang at lee's booth for letting me sit there for over an hour playing Bob's 345 It was GREAT!!!! all the other people playing instruments faded out of sound as I played a few E Tudes It was soooo easy to play!! even with the C.O.P.D...... I WANT ONE I'm in love hahah.... Bob was very generous with his time and use of his beautiful instrument....THANK YOU BOB!! I played the one CC with the original bell and thought Bob's had a closer sound to the old york..... If I didn't have a bad back I might have tryed to make a get away with the horn haha...It's too bad I didn't take more pics but my batteries faded after only 5 pictures Bummer.... I got to meet a lot of the great guys from tubenet they were so kind to me Thank You!!!Dave fedderly was also nice got to play his big Bair MW very nice sounding for 24000 but after he told me the price my hands started sweating holding it<s> Matt Walters is everything people told me about him honest and very informed played a lot of horns there and he never rushed me thanks Matt!!It was too bad the consert was canselled it might not have been if it was the Marines playing..Haha just kidding don't you Army guys get mad so as you can see I have a great opion even though not an experienced one of the Kantstel bell convertion of Bob's great Holton!!......bigbob

[Mike Finn]

A low res pic to whet your appetite for what will surely be a feast of fotos from Rick:

If I'm not mistaken, that's the new-old-stock BBb in front, then Bob's, then I think Tom's and Ronnie's.

[Rick Denney]

A low res pic to whet your appetite for what will surely be a feast of fotos from Rick:

If I'm not mistaken, that's the new-old-stock BBb in front, then Bob's, then I think Tom's and Ronnie's.

And the sequence, from the nearest, is Bb, Bb, C, C. You can see the coppery hue on the Kanstul bells even in this photo.

Rick "whose Holton was already back in the car when this photo was staged" Denney

[bort]

Dang Joe...Holtons? How many do you have up in that attic of yours?

[Art Hovey]

I played a little bit on this one:

It had the new Kanstul bell, and was pitched in BBb
I did not quite fall in love with the instrument because the pistons had unusually long stroke, and unusually small buttons. But it sure is a sweet horn.

[Rick Denney]

...OK...Here's an informal poll:

With or without a particularly flat third partial (lower F) that often occurs with these, the SIXTH partial on these tubas (upper F) is almost always quite sharp.

Assuming a completely restored (and precision-aligned valve section) satin-silver BB-345, would those of you who like these consider a main tuning slide trigger a "HMMM..." or just a "hm"...?

I would consider it. The sixth partial is sharp on my Holton, but then it's sharp on all my Bb tubas and I rather thought it was just me. A sharp sixth partial isn't uncommon of course, and for the music I play using the Holton not nearly as much of a problem as a flat third partial would be (and mine is not flat). My fifth partial is also a bit flat, but that's also pretty common, even on Miraphones.

Rick "who had considered a main-slide trigger for the York Master to deal with the same issue" Denney

[Tubacube]

I wish I could have been
there to try the Holton/Kanstul bell CC.
I have tried the Kanstul/ J.W. York 4/4 tubas.
Mr. Treece and Bob Carpenter have made a great contribution.
The proof is in the playing. The way the tone sweetens in the upper register is most pleasurable. Warmth in tone through the different registers was more than evident. Hope you don't mind, but I think it would be of good interest to show the fruits of the Treece/Carpenter/Kanstul collaboration.
I've gotta get me one of these!