Conn 20J catastrophy

[andrew the tuba player]

ok. as most of you know and often point out I'm a HUGE conn 20j fan and love mine to death. Well, when I pulled it out of storage,I noticed that the point where the lead pipe and reciever meet had been hit on a door or something with a sharp corner. There was a significant 'slice' in the lead pipe. But, no air leaked so, I ignored it thinking it'd be back up there soon anyway. Well, later, when my also beloved 20K (yeah, I have a thing for big old conns lol) was in the shop i played it for marching practice. I noticed that air was starting to leak so I looked and the solder that was holding the two pieces togather was leaking. Here lately in my community band, I've noticed that spit was comeing out. Recently it started shooting out. I taped it, but the moister ate the glue on the tape. On to the catastrophy.Last sunday I was playing it in church and layed it down on a table. I had forgotten that the mouthpiece stuck out a little bit from the horn. So, when the mouthpiece hit the table the brace on the lead pipe. It was way far up. So, the day after that, I tryed to bend it back. Well, the brace it's self snapped in half. then, the receiver just...fell off. the brace was the only thing holding it on. The solder was completely eroded away. So my beloved 20J is now just sitting begging to be played while i play an old school beater in the community band. i talked to my repair man and he said it'd be about $30 to repair. All that needs to be done is the brace needs to be soldered back togather, and the lead pipe and receiver need to be soldered also. the leadpipe it's self isn't damaged in any way. I can't wait!!!

[adam0408]

I felt bad for you until I got to the end. Now I just want to slap you.

I am joking of course. Maybe.

[andrew the tuba player]

for the bending? Yeah, That was dumb. but, at least i learned not to do it on an old beat up horn thats cheap to fix than on a brand new expencive one??? but yeah, It should be back up in a few days. Im gonna play it for hours.

[andrew the tuba player]

well,I can't believe i forgot to post about this. well, Another catastrophe with the 20j. so awhile back when i first got my 25 i was playing the two together to compare them. I hadn't played the 20j in a while so it was time for oiling. I pulled the valves out and oiled them as usual only when i put the first one back in, it stuck. Hard. It would not move what so ever. so i played with it for about 30 minutes. I could get it to move slightly up and down and around. so i started going back and forth to try to wiggle it out. Well, i was making some progress when all out a sudden i heard a grinding sound and the valve popped out. When i looked at the valve i was horrified. There was a gash in the side. at first i thought there must be something wrong in the casing but after inspection there wasn't. So i stored the valve and tried to get a new one. after looking at it a few days ago, i figure out the cause of the problem. the valve its not straight. it is bent in the middle which is what was catching inside. I was wondering if there was any way to fix the valve. I thought re lapping but the tear is in one of the ports. i will post pics.

[iiipopes]

Hang in there. All things can be fixed. When I was in junior high school, while I was at basketball practice, somebody took my trumpet, banged the valves against a brick wall and shoved them back into the casings. The local tech, Paul Beckerdite, which some on this very forum may have known from decades ago, performed a minor miracle in getting everything set right.

It's just brass. It can be fixed. Take a deep breath. It's worth it to get it fixed properly. Long live the 20J!

[andrew the tuba player]

well....another dumb mistake of mine (don't you hate looking back on middle school/early high school years and counting how many times this phrase pops up?) is when i brought it down i was so excited that i told my band director that she had to put it on inventory right then because it wasn't recorded. To this day she says she would have given to me during any of the years I've played it but she can't because now it is on inventory. So sadly enough once i graduate in may it will probably be stored in the same spot it had been for many years (but after reading all the posts about tuba players going back and finding long lost horns from there schools in storage and having them given to them there still maybe hope )

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Wow. I didn't think band directors had any right to give away school property. Color me surprised to hear this. And somewhat disturbed.

[Ken Herrick]

Wow. I didn't think band directors had any right to give away school property. Color me surprised to hear this. And somewhat disturbed.

1110% agreed here. Frankly, It would be much more appropriate for a sufficient rental to be charged to cover "fair wear and tear" repairs on a periodic basis and those who cause damage beyond that point should be liable for the cost of repairing the damage they do.

[andrew the tuba player]

Normally both would be true. but if the horn is not on inventory then it does not legally belong to the school. It could be someones personal horn who decided it was best to leave it behind or some crazy thing like that (my band director never knew it existed until i dug it out from beneath three broken fiberglass sousaphone bells one day.) And she was giving it on the basis that it was "broken beyond repair" which for a school in fiscal distress a horn that has not been seen or heard for at least 6 six years loosing a receiver and now a valve is not repairable. BUT since it is now on inventory it is the states property and to get rid of state property you must have a public auction. (and since i have no money i knew it would probably become a wall decoration for some one who thought it looked cool so i didn't push it). and about the repair thing, my dad (since i was a freshman at the time...and broke) offered to pay for both incidences but the band director said not to worry about it because i am the only person who plays it (and can, since the only other tuba players we have are middle schoolers that could fit inside of it). Plus, she will not use it since it has a forward bell (another reason she would give it to me. even if it were brand new she wouldn't use it because we have a 45 piece band on a good day and it will swallow every last one of them on the stage. i only used it in the band when my horn was in the shop once or twice. other than that it has been sitting at my house for the last four years). and she didn't think i should have to pay because when i got it down it was not playable and i payed to have it fixed and fixed a few things my self on it. And because me and my dad have become the 'field techs' of the band and saved a lot of time money and many marching contests for the band. (and don't bring up the band dad repair stories. my dad is very good at fixing instruments right. we know the limits of what we can and can't do. as a matter of fact we've fixed a few of those band dad stories.)

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Wow. I didn't think public schools had instruments just lying around "off inventory" for anyone to discover and just "have." Or that high school students left their personal instruments (like tubas?!?) behind when they graduated to be damaged and lost under other broken instruments. Color me surprised to hear this. And somewhat disturbed.

Amazing what you can learn from this site if you just keep an open mind. I would have thought that something like that absolutely never happened. Ever.

Interesting story. I'm going to start asking the high school band directors I know in the area to see if I can dig around their storage areas for abandoned personal instruments in poor condition that are "off inventory" and I can just have. Thanks.

[andrew the tuba player]

Ok the personal horn thing was just a stupid off the wall way to say we don't know the circumstances ok? not to be taken literally. And no it was not on inventory. i read the page myself. It was not there. i don't know why. but it wasn't and those are the procedures. If the horn is not on the schools inventory then the school does not own the horn. As check by the band director and superintendent of the school. Believe me we looked into this. I don't know why the horn wasn't on it to begin with. we can't even find out where it came from. We've talked to former band students and one of them remembers putting it in storage about ten years ago but it was just sitting around in a practice room when he got there. My dad attended the same school in the 70-80s and said he never saw it either. We looked through pictures and everything. There is no former knowledge of the horn that we can find. just that it sat in a small storage room in the band room for years until it was deemed in the way and put in the larger one in the auditorium with three sousaphones which where broken and piled on top of it until i found it putting some hat boxes away and pulled it down. That was the first time me or my band director had seen it. Or any of the other staff for that matter. Our band director has been here for six years and the horn has been there for way longer than that. So since it had never been seen and was not on inventory no one wanted it except me. so we checked the legal proceedings and they said (once again) that if an item is not on inventory it doesn't belong to the school. BUT since i had her put it on inventory that made it school/state property which could not be given away. It has to be publicly auctioned. SO before i had her put it on inventory the school/state had no clue it existed and did not own it. Why it was there i have no clue. Believe me we checked into it all. I'm not about to steal for the state/school.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Oh, I don't think anyone's accusing you of anything like stealing...I'm just surprised such a thing would happen at a high school. Or that an instrument stored in a school wouldn't be considered the school's property. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

Your story actually encourages me. I don't own an instrument and would love to find some beat-up old Conn to fix up and play on. Sounds like great fun.

[Dan Schultz]

Wow. I didn't think public schools had instruments just lying around "off inventory" for anyone to discover and just "have."..... Interesting story. I'm going to start asking the high school band directors I know in the area to see if I can dig around their storage areas for abandoned personal instruments in poor condition that are "off inventory" and I can just have. Thanks.

You might be surprised! The first time I call on any school for repair work, I always have the band director consider trading old instruments in as exchange for repair work. Some schools have a lot of flexibility while others are quite firm in the way they handle their business. Some schools have to go through the motions of having instruments declared surplus and then offering them to the highest bidder. While others simply put their unwanted stuff in a pile for me to consider. I've even had band directors deliver their unwanted stuff to me in the backs of their vans or pickup trucks without even involving any paperwork. I've found that very few schools actually have a formal inventory. Many times, instruments are simply donated to schools and never show up on any sort of inventory.

[Rick Denney]

Wow. I didn't think band directors had any right to give away school property. Color me surprised to hear this. And somewhat disturbed.

Sure they do, depending on the school system. Where I grew up, band directors evaluated the condition and value of their instruments every year. There was a category for "junk", and when valued as such, could be disposed of. My comeback tuba was a Besson Stratford 3-valve instrument that needed extensive playability repairs and had been beaten to death in the storeroom of my high school for the 16 years since the school opened. My band director never wanted to see it again. It might fetch $100 on ebay these days, and when I traded it for something else, that's about the value it received (and I had partially repaired it). My high-school band director hauled it to the "dumpster", which I provided.

Repairing it would have cost more than it was worth in a school situation, and he saved that money to purchase better instruments for students to play.

After I trimmed all the slides (it had been tuned at the factory--flat), shortened and lowered the leadpipe so that it could be played by humanoids, removed the unmanning device on the bottom bow, and pushed out the biggest dents, it was at least playable, though the valves leaked badly. But my world changed significantly when I replaced it with a Sanders/Cerveny rotary tuba and used it as trade fodder for something or other (maybe it was a valve trombone).

Of course, it was junk when they bought it.

I do see where this opens the door for corruption, but in my view that sort of corruption might be easier to punish than to prevent.

Rick "who can think of lots worse corruption from some band directors than letting one of their enthusiastic kids take home a junker slated for the dumpster anyway" Denney

[Carroll]

Large, metropolitan school systems often have a "repair" shop that understand little or nothing about real instrument repair. If they run across an orphan horn (discontinued model, difficult to find parts, obvious damage that would be beyond their expertise) they will store the horn. These stored horns then get salvaged (thrown away). I have known clever lads who would intercept the salvage load and rescue these instruments for use by students.

Upon careful investigation, you will also find telephone systems, computers and printers, textbooks, encyclopedias, file cabinets, desks and chairs, etc. in discard status. It is often easier for those in charge to buy new than to make old work.

[iiipopes]

I picked up an old Conn alto saxophone from my old school this way: depreciated off the books, disposed of by the director.

[iiipopes]

Normally both would be true. but if the horn is not on inventory then it does not legally belong to the school....

I disagree. It may very well belong to the school depending on the circumstances. It's just that without it being on inventory, and without any other documentation, including purchase orders, shipping bills, etc., "proving" it belongs to the school is quite a different matter. And yes, I read the rest of the post this line is quoted from.

[PhilSloan]

I think the difficulty in evaluating each person's two cents lies in the human experience factor. If you wanna get all legal about it, any horn that is purchased, donated or becomes a "common law wife" after so many years of laying in a band room somewhere most likely would be considered to be school property. Unless your local school district has an established process of inventory and control, just about anything could occur. Each of us has their own experience that can't be applied to all situations.

Barring some kind of shady shenanigans I can't imagine any band director giving away an asset that is worth the cost of maintenance or repair. I would GUESS that most metropolitan schools have rules in place whereas the Podunk schools would be more likely to allow the band director leeway to make those decisions.

Include me in the group that sees the great deals and finds all around and keep hoping for a turn!

~Phil Sloan~

[iiipopes]

Indeed. But any system has ways to make it work well, and also ways to corrupt it. Like anything else, it depends on the integrity of the people in the system. The saxophone I was given was an archaic, but not collectible, model with now-non-standard pads and keys, and was deemed, rightfully so, more expensive to repair than replace. It made a great project in an instrument repair class at a local university, and was sent on down the line. The souzy, well, it is on loan.

BTW: the concept of "common law wife" came about as a way to help children born of these non-solemnized unions to secure their inheritance. It had nothing to do with "legitmizing" any relationship, in an age when the word "bastard" was still a technical term disqualifying inheritance.

The correct term for the above-described situation is "adverse possession," meaning it may not be mine, but I've had open possession of it (and a few other conditions) for so long that the time has passed for anybody else to claim a better right to it than me.

[djwesp]

I'm just amazed Andrew. I had to struggle mightily just to have one horn in junior high and middle school.

You've had 4/5?

How do you do it? I have a lot of friends who'd like to hear your technique.