Yamaha 321 euphonium 5 valve conversion

[Ferguson]

If four is good, five is better.

I'm helping some friends out by testing this new toy. It's a rotary valve that fits onto the 4th valve slide of a Yamaha 321 euphonium, making it a 5-valve model. It's like having a German-style valve setup on a piston euphonium. The rotor can be set to flat 1/2 step, for a 4+5 low E, or flat whole step for a 4+5 low Eb. Low C and B are no problem to play in tune. You just get your left thumb in there, and it's easy to reach. And you can take it off when it's not needed.

Yamaha actually made this part at one time, but it's been long since discontinued. So what's the TubeNet opinion? Is this a good frugal alternative to the pricey compensating euphonium for those who like to play low? What should the tuning be? Flat whole step? Flat half step? Both? And what do you think it's worth? (Inquiring minds want to know.)

On another note, the old Yamaha 321 euphs had a long 3rd valve inner slide. You could pull it out to tune the 3rd valve to 2 whole steps (like 2+3). I believe these long slides tended to get stuck easily, so sadly, they now put a short slide in there. But today I noticed that even though the inner tubes are short, Yamaha didn't fill up the inside of the long outer tubes, so there's a gap in there. A long slide could be made and it would still go all the way in. Would this be worth doing? The idea is that if you tune the 3rd valve to equal 2+3, it's Belgian style tuning, and you can then play a low C in-tune with only 4 valves. Then you can play Strauss all you want - just pull the slide out a bit before the low riff, in the same way that a single valve bass trombone player might pull the F-attachment to E before a menacing riff. Opinions?

This horn will be on display at Trombone Day LA at Cal State Fullerton this Saturday February 6, 2010. http://www.tromboneday.com

Thanks in advance.

Best,

Ferguson

[Bob Kolada]

How about an independent 5th of some kind, possibly one in the leadpipe? It'd be nice to have the 523 combo with a flat step 5th.

[Ferguson]

Sure, I'd like that as well, but that's a custom job, and then you've stepped up to a much higher price point with no guarantee of success. I think the place to put a fixed 5th valve is just after the 4th. Tony Clements used to have such a YEP321 that had been modified like that by Larry Minick. I'm not sure who owns it now. (Tony, where is it?) That 5th rotor was 2 whole steps, so a low D was 4+5. That's how a second rotor on a bass trombone is usually tuned these days, and the long 5th was stock on Miraphone tubas for years, so it made sense to me at the time.

Because this plug-in 5th rotor is stacked, you get more use if it's shorter, hence 1/2 or whole step tuning, and then you can be right on for a low Eb and more. Also, the premise of this was to take a stock instrument, and for not a huge sum of money, make it much more versatile by adding a plug-in gadget. I think it's cool, but don't know if anyone else does.

Best,

Ferguson

[Chris Olka]

Do it. I've got one and love it. Sorry for being out of touch. Been a little bit pre-occupied with trying to not go on strike. Do it. The market for YEP 321 conversions is potentially enormous. How many of these are floating around? How many players have one and don't have the $5000 to upgrade to a compensating horn?

Go for it!

CHris Olka

[Timswisstuba]

I've thought of this before and would put the 5 valve within the 3rd valve slide. Putting the 5th valve on a shorter valve circuit gives more fingering possibilities. This would give you the 523 combo as well as the 513.

The knuckles on the rotor valve would have to curve very sharply in order for it to fit.

Tim Sullivan

[T. J. Ricer]

I've got an older Yamaha Eb with the dependent fifth in the fourth setup. It really does make a good horn into a great one and, at least with tuba, those bottom couple of notes are pretty important - it's hard to play quintet without a solid low Ab and F (which, of course can be played fine with slide pulls, but the valve is nice) - and having a non-wolf tone option on the E is good, too. Mine is a long half-step and works fine. Whole-step might be more "standard" these days and would probably give a more solid low E

transposed to Euph world, I mean low Eb and low C and B.

do it. and then make the Eb version.

thanks,
T. J.

[Timswisstuba]

These 321 euphoniums and Eb tubas all play really well. I think part of the reason Yamaha discontinued the 5 valve versions of both the euph and Eb tuba was because they were labeled as "student" line horns and wanted to persuade buyers into buying more expensive "professional" horns.??

Tim Sullivan

[Tom Gregory]

Can this be made to fit the chinese clones of the YEP321? If so, I'm in.
TG

[Uncle Buck]

Seems to me I remember one going on Ebay recently for around $800 or $900.

[Richard Armandi]

Hi Folks,
I also have the 321 euph. with the dependent 5th rotor. The instrument didn't come with one originally but I managed to find the part and then had a new slide made to make it a flat whole step. For me, especially since euph. is a double, I find the 321 superior to other much more expensive instruments for the freedom of blowing and almost spot on intonation. Go for it... I don't think you'll be disapointed. My YEB-381 Eb Tuba is set up similarly with the dependent 5th and flat whole step slide. It's the 2nd prototype (from 1984) and a fantastic instrument.
Just my $.02

Best,

Rich Armandi

[Toobist]

A Yamaha Eb YEB-321 with the 5th valve used to be available and was called, I believe, the YEB-381 or somesuch. It was a GREAT horn but didn't sell that well from what I've been told. A bunch were circulating back in the early 90's as I recall. I tried a couple of them and they were both wonderful. If enough of us caused a fuss, I'll bet we could get a run of the 5th valve kits done by Yamaha.

To set up a YEP-321 with this configuration is a cool idea and I guessed the 381 was the inspiration because it's the same set-up.

[J.c. Sherman]

I have a YEP-321 with the optional 5th. I did have some problems with the slide wear allowing it to fall out so I took the assembly apart and moved it permanently to the right yard of the fourth tubing. No new parts, except a custom lever. Now it’s always there.

This is an exceptional idea to bring back – what a boon for the tuba world (as have been the removable valves for single trigger tenor and bass bones)! I wouldn’t – as has been suggested – put this valve on the third valve; there are some other combinations that would be eliminated from the instrument, as well as making a very vulnerable part!

Having this available on these 4v non-comps would be a great cost saver especially for tubists doubling. With a (modified) Bobo TT mouthpiece I have a great practice tool and an instrument well suited to French music, or for tubists to cover tenor tuba parts. And this valve system is easy for tubists to learn and use quickly.

[Bob Mosso]

Great idea! Put me on the list to "notify when available".

In an ideal world I'd like an independent short major 3rd that replaces the main tuning slide... in silver.

I haven't given a lot of thought to dependent valves, long whole-step vs. long half-step....
If it were independent my preference would be short major 3rd, long whole, then long half. I'll work thru all the dependent fingerings (when I have time) to see if that changes my preferences.

Does it still fit in the Yamaha case without removing the 5th valve?

There are many potential buyers (I am one), with a high price you will only sell to an elite few, with a low price you can sell to the masses.

And, put one of those long 3rd slides into my shopping cart.

Regards,
Bob

[Bob Mosso]

Here are some pics of the old Yamaha version. The Ferguson version has fewer bends, it should be less stuffy. Fewer bends and larger radii (open wrap) are always better.

[MaryAnn]

Not to abscond with the thread, but can someone tell me why the 4th slide on my King 2280 is so incredibly long? I've given up trying to empty it during concerts because of the contortions I have to go through to get it in and out. It must be nearly a foot long! Why? It doesn't need, for me anyway, to be pulled out anywhere near that much to get 4+ notes in tune. Or maybe it does and I'm just so accustomed to lipping the pitches that I haven't realized I could do it differently. But then the slide would run into my thigh....

MA

[tbn.al]

You can pull it far enough to get the Eb with 4 only which gives you a D with 14, Db 234, C134, B1234. It is then possible to have the fully chromatic scale from the pedal E up by using the 3rd valve kicker for E and F just below the staff. I have to use my TT MP to play that low though.

[pgym]

Not to abscond with the thread, but can someone tell me why the 4th slide on my King 2280 is so incredibly long? I've given up trying to empty it during concerts because of the contortions I have to go through to get it in and out. It must be nearly a foot long! Why? It doesn't need, for me anyway, to be pulled out anywhere near that much to get 4+ notes in tune. Or maybe it does and I'm just so accustomed to lipping the pitches that I haven't realized I could do it differently. But then the slide would run into my thigh....

MA

Enlightenment may be found [url=http://www.dwerden.com/talk/forum/messa ... eadid=2617]here[/l].

[J.c. Sherman]

"dkstone" on that site knows his stuff.

All the arguments on that thread about the 2280 being a mid-level/non-professional instrument are hogwash; it's like claiming a 4-valve Alex isn't professional because it doesn't have a 5th valve. And I've heard 2280's in the Cleveland Orchestra sounding wonderful... huge and wonderful... for years and years.

"dkstone" said it well, but the King is played much like a 3-valve trumpet, third-valve tuning and all. The fourth comes into play Eb and down. It can also be played more conventionally, giving you back some trills and what; but in the designed tuning, the Low C is the most open on the market.

Put me down for wanting those 5th valves out there, and you can skip the 2280 ; )

J.c.S.

[Bob Kolada]

I've always wondered why the 2280 didn't have the kicker on the 4th slide, even though I suspect it would stop at C. But now it makes sense!

How does the kicker work? I've always wanted one on my 3 valve Amati to avoid actually handling the slide with my left hand while playing and holding the instrument with the left!

I have to use my TT MP to play that low though.

Nothing wrong with that!
Do you mean your shaved 30E or an actual tenor tuba mouthpiece?

[bisontuba]

HI-
Yamaha 321 euphs are nice instruments, but just get a Schiller Elite Comp Euph and/or a W. Nirschl Euph--better instruments and cheaper!
Welcome to the 21st Century.
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