Buying Instruments

[pierso20]

As a band teacher I see many students' parents purchase instruments as rentals or just a flat out purchase. Some instruments are WAY too expensive, which is understandable. I.e. string bass, bassoon etc.

However, as a tuba player I am beginning to really feel that young tuba players should probably invest in their own instruments. We have had it easy...for a long time. Many tuba players do not even own their own mouthpeices. Whereas woodwind instruments (for beginners) can often be "cheap"; but when adding on costs for reeds, etc. it actually becomes quite pricey. With other brass instruments, you "can" buy a trumpet (for example) for $200 but in only a few years the student will likely upgrade. With french horn, the player will eventually upgrade to a double horn, and so on.

Why is it that we allow tuba players to go on, beating up EXPENSIVE equipment at the school because they can not "afford" one? Especially with the introduction of models like the "schiller" or the increase of quality of Cerveny, why is it that tuba players (or parents) refuse or don't think to purchase their own instrumet? Now, I understand that it "can" be expensive. However, a "suitable" amateur horn does not need to cost $6k +, as has been pointed out lately. You can get them at reasonable prices and more tuba players should be directed towards self ownership. If anything, this would encourage practicing and strenghten the players opportunity to continue past school years (for the average player).

Many schools don't have enough tuba's to allow students to practice at home with one. This requires students to practice only at school, which for many students is not an option. Students could "AT LEAST" have one at home (if they owned) now and the opportunity to not continually hope for only whole notes or gasp at the sight of "runs" in the music.

My main point is, after 2 years or so of tuba playing (on school horns most likely), the time has come to invest in a horn.

Here is an example of costs:

(These are LOW estimate)
A clarinet player buys their first clarinet for $400. It is not very good, but little Johnny is just starting out. Over the course of 2 years, Johnny's parents spend (at $10 for a box of 10 Rico Reeds: Each box lasting a month if used "properly") $240 on reeds over 2 years. Now the investment is at $640. Repairs likely with student abuse and "cruddy instrument" over 2 years - $100. Now, $740. Student keeps playing and now want's to upgrade. Parents pay 1500 for a new clarinet. They have now spent $2140 (about the price of a Schiller tuba). In only TWO years. High School: 4 more years of Reeds: $480. Repairs? $100. Total by the time student is done with school (if only 2 years of middle school and 4 in high school)? $2720. This could be a "low" or a "high" instrument depending on student and situation.

I understand that there is an initial investment that can be scary for many parents. However, once a student hits high school and chooses to continue band, there is a relatively low attrition rate. I also understand that infvestments over time are FAR easier to deal with than a lump investment. However, investing in a tuba may not be any more expensive than investing in a woodwind or another instrument (at least over time). And there is something much more "cool" about owning your own instrument.

[MartyNeilan]

After a time, you will find that you spend months trying to coerce a student to buy a $20 metronome or tuner, a $16 etude book or solo, $2 valve oil, or even a pencil.
These same "broke" students will spend ridiculous amounts of money on lunch every day and probably drive better cars than you.
Saw this every day when I was in kolledge myself. The other kiddies could not understand how a married guy with kids could own one or more instruments when they were "broke college students" who couldn't even buy their own mouthpiece.

[pierso20]

After a time, you will find that you spend months trying to coerce a student to buy a $20 metronome or tuner, a $16 etude book or solo, $2 valve oil, or even a pencil.These same "broke" students will spend ridiculous amounts of money on lunch every day and probably drive better cars than you.
Saw this every day when I was in kolledge myself. The other kiddies could not understand how a married guy with kids could own one or more instruments when they were "broke college students" who couldn't even buy their own mouthpiece.

All true. Though I have to admit, a lot of it comes from top down. If we as teachers just continue to allow it, then we cannot change the expectation. It can just take some prodding. I often wonder too if the tuba player really is the "poor kid who can't afford an instrument" kid. I don't really believe that in what I have seen. Frankly, any instrument should be available to those who "actually" possess a financial need. Those who don't should still make an investment.

I also find that it's laziness for pencils, etudes, oil, etc. We shouldn't have to be the store, however if we have those things on hand, students will buy it because it's easy to do (of course, that requires school investment and forethought... ) "Mom, I need $20 for a metronome." "ok, here you go". Go to school and gets it. "Mom, we need to go to the music store to get a metronome". "Where? We don't have time..."etc.

[tubatom91]

Why is it that we allow tuba players to go on, beating up EXPENSIVE equipment at the school because they can not "afford" one?

1) fear of commitment. Most parents/students don't know if they are continuing music or not, and that can change at the drop of a hat.
2) With trumpets, clarinets, and flutes the gap between "acceptable" "intermediate" equipment in price is not a huge leap, as far as I'm concerned the gap between "student level/intermediate" and "professional" tubas is a hard pill to swallow for most parents. Especially since I've never seen a tuba marketed as "intermediate" but I've seen countless trumpet ads labeled that way.

[lgb&dtuba]

Logistics would seem to be the problem as much as anything.

In this day of bussing how would a high school tuba player get his own tuba back and forth (safely) between home and school? Or fit it into his locker?

Do you have secure storage for tubas in the band room to keep anyone else from messing with that tuba? Do you have liability and loss coverage for student instruments left there? Is the band room open before classes begin (assuming the bus gets there early enough) so that the tuba can be stored there? How about after school? Will there be enough time for the student to get to the band room, retrieve his/her tuba and get it onto his/her bus?

Would you expect your student tuba player to buy a sousaphone for marching season in addition to a tuba?

Do you expect your student tubists to be heading off to college as music majors on tuba or never play one again? It's one thing to invest a couple hundred dollars in a student level trumpet, quite another to invest a couple thousand in an instrument you'll not play after high school.

I'm sure there are any number of other things people could add.

I wouldn't have bought my kid a tuba when he was in middle school band or even let him take a beater out of the house to school. Luckily he wanted to play trombone. Which he lost interest in as soon as he got into high school and dropped band completely.

[bort]

I went to high school in a blue-collar area. Good kids for the most part, though not a lot of money to throw around, and maybe 20% of the graduating seniors school went on to go to a 4-year college.

Kids (and parents) serious about college were more worried about paying for college than upgrading their horns as high schoolers. Motivated kids got jobs themselves to pay for their stuff beyond the Bundy/Selmer stuff their parents bought for them in elementary school. Even at all-county band events (and it's a pretty big county, with almost 30 high schools), only 2 of the 6 tuba players came with their own tubas (a Piggy and a Zeiss). The rest of us had the standard issue YBB-201 owned by the county. Funny enough, the 2 kids with their own instruments were always the last chair players.

Kids with cars had crappy cars. Most of us didn't drive at all, for lack of being able to afford insurance. Not trying to sound like a curmudgeon, but when I started high school (15 years ago), as much as parents would have liked to upgrade their kids instruments, it just wasn't realistic.

[Tom]

It sounds like times have changed since I was in middle/high school.

We (the tuba players) were issued a school owned instrument. We were all grateful that they were provided at no direct cost to us (no rental fee), and that they were well used but quality instruments consisting of mostly Miraphone 186s, but we were expected to provide our own mouthpieces from day one. It makes me sick to think of school owned or shared tuba mouthpieces. There were no "practice tubas" to leave at home...you were expected to take the instrument back and forth (in the hard case) to practice, etc. I do not think this is an unreasonable expectation at all, quite frankly.

We were not ever allowed to "beat up" expensive equipment and were actually taught to take care of the instruments and the consequences for not doing so were clearly explained to us (repair costs, no more access to school owned instruments---it was not a "right"). We played the snot out of those 186s and those of us that were "serious" about tuba took advantage of having access to school instruments by using that time to save for the purchase of our own instruments upon graduation. The "serious" tuba crowd I was in high school with, for example, was able to save enough money over the couse of high school to purchase tubas like PT-6s, PT-20s, G-50s, 188s when we graduated are were off to "music school."

You really can't compare the cost of ownership of a clarinet to purchasing a tuba, as you're comparing two years of student clarinet use and expendables (reeds) with the initial purchase price of a Schiller tuba. It is the minimum initial cash outlay ($1500, $2000, more?) that many parents can't handle or won't lay out for something their child may or may not take to. Besides, very, very few parents actually upgrade their kids instruments over the course of middle or high school...they either don't understand the need or can't afford it. Yes, trumpet players that are started on cornet will be pushed to switch to silver Bach Strad trumpets, and some clarinet players will be asked to upgrade to wood clarinets (start on plastic?). In my experience school owned instruments include everything from bass clarinet to contrabassoon and double horns to tubas...but regardless of that, those that really are serious or really are being held back by what they are playing now will find a way to play a better instrument. I see no issues in students making due with what they have access to (provided it is in playable condition) with the decision to purchase made once instruments are no longer provided. It isn't the Vienna Philharmonic, remember. Band directors that develop some sort of elitist attitude and suggest, push for, or require constant upgrades of equipment often end up killing their band programs without even knowing it...I've seen it happen...tread lightly.

[pierso20]

It's obvious that some people have read only part of my post, or they concentrated only in the parts they disagree on. I had stated that I understand the difficulty of initial investment.

Band directors that develop some sort of elitist attitude and suggest, push for, or require constant upgrades of equipment often end up killing their band programs without even knowing it...I've seen it happen...tread lightly.

This is not what my thoughts are about. For tuba players it is about owning an instrument. ANY tuba. I am not saying that all students HAVE TO, or NEED to get an upgrade at all times. I was merely relaying that many students do in fact go this route. Having said that, why do tuba players get immune to this? Why is it that they won't even own a small 3 banger "thing" to practice on.

In this day of bussing how would a high school tuba player get his own tuba back and forth (safely) between home and school? Or fit it into his locker?

In my post, I implied (and I hope) suggested that owning a tuba was for the students benefit, not the benefit of the school.

Many schools don't have enough tuba's to allow students to practice at home with one. This requires students to practice only at school, which for many students is not an option. Students could "AT LEAST" have one at home (if they owned) now and the opportunity to not continually hope for only whole notes or gasp at the sight of "runs" in the music.

The "serious" tuba crowd I was in high school with, for example, was able to save enough money over the couse of high school to purchase tubas like PT-6s, PT-20s, G-50s, 188s when we graduated are were off to "music school."

I am not talking about the "serious" tuba crowd (which by the way, there are MANY "serious" players who get to college without an instrument...which is in my opinion unnacceptable consideration that most college bound students of other instruments at least OWN their own, even if it is a little shabby). Owning is for the students benefit. Owning also provides students an opportunity to do something that non-owners may not get: The opportunity to continue playing their instrument well out of school. Many students gradaute high school and NEVER touch their instrument again. BUT many of them still have the instrument should they choose to continue playing. Unfortunately, tuba players don't even get that option if they never purchased their own horn.

I am not suggesting an "elitist" view that everyone NEEDS or HAS to have their own instrument. I am saying that many teachers NEVER even think to talk to tuba players and their parents about a tuba purchase. However, if we had 15 clarinet prospects who needed instruments we would be VERY quick to point to the local music shops and rentals, etc.

I am merely saying that many students don't even think that they could own their own tuba. Maybe a little education to them and their parents could go a long way. At least then, they would have an oppotunity to continue their instrument outside of school.

[Tom]

I had stated that I understand the difficulty of initial investment.

<snip>

Having said that, why do tuba players get immune to this? Why is it that they won't even own a small 3 banger "thing" to practice on.

<snip>

I think the simple answer to your question is because tubas are expensive but also because used tubas suitable for student purchase (even small three bangers as you suggested) aren't readily available from the same local music stores that you might send a clarinet or saxophone player to.

I am not suggesting an "elitist" view that everyone NEEDS or HAS to have their own instrument. I am saying that many teachers NEVER even think to talk to tuba players and their parents about a tuba purchase. However, if we had 15 clarinet prospects who needed instruments we would be VERY quick to point to the local music shops and rentals, etc.

Again, I don't think you can compare renting clarinets to BUYING a tuba. There is a huge difference in initial investment plus where would you send a kid to buy a tuba? Would you really refer them to a place like Dillon Music, Baltimore Brass, Brasswind, Tuba Exchange, etc., or do you expect that you local shops will actually have a handful of suitable instruments available?

I think private teachers are often the better judges of a student's true individual abilities and so the task of suggesting instrument purchases is often left to them, especially since most band directors know little to nothing about tubas when it comes to offering purchase advice.

I am merely saying that many students don't even think that they could own their own tuba. Maybe a little education to them and their parents could go a long way. At least then, they would have an oppotunity to continue their instrument outside of school.

I think this is a noble goal to educate parents and players about prices, models and so on, but still do not actually believe that you'll end up with very many students or parents actually purchasing an instrument. Yes, you may plant the seed for them that they could buy their own to keep playing, but what parents or students are thinking about life beyond high school while they are in the middle of it?

[pierso20]

I think this is a noble goal to educate parents and players about prices, models and so on, but still do not actually believe that you'll end up with very many students or parents actually purchasing an instrument. Yes, you may plant the seed for them that they could buy their own to keep playing, but what parents or students are thinking about life beyond high school while they are in the middle of it?

I am not suggesting something out of reality but more on a philosophical level. Players DESERVE their own horn to play and I just wish that was something that more teachers would, as you said, plant the seed. Most don't even give a second thought to the tuba. In fact, I think it'd be fair to argue that most teacher believe that you don't "need" your own tuba unless you're going on to college...which is garbage. You should very well be encouraged to get one regardless. That is all. I'm an idealist.

[pierso20]

A very complex issue.

Indeed.

[1895King]

Regarding the comment that college students should own their tubas; I started college in 1965 and graduated in 1970. In our band, no Euphonium or tuba player owned his or her instrument, Fort Hays Kansas State College owned them all. As far as I know, I am the only one of that group still playing and I did not purchase a horn until just a couple of months before I graduated. I still have that horn; it is a late 19th century or early 20th century King BBb that I gave $50.00 for and had to make payments on that.
The horns we had in 1965 were 2 20J's and 4 Kings. We got one 186 in 1966 or 1967 and 3 more in 1969. We did not suffer with what we had an our program was, at the time, the best in the State of Kansas.
I did not get my own 186 until 15 years ago and I just listed it for sale last Sunday.

[tofu]

Besides many of the other good points made here is also the fact that many kids have switched to the tuba from other instruments. Parents have already bought one instrument and they don't know how long the child will stay with the tuba. Add in the fact that a good majority of those kids may never play the tuba again once out of HS. Who is even going to spend the money for a "cheap" Chinese instrument for a couple years use? Plus lets face it - many HS tuba sections are filled out with marginal players to fill up the section. No way do you get those parents to pony up for an instrument when they know their kid is in band more because it is a social organization than in it for the music. I think a lot of bands go begging even these days to get kids to play tuba period. Making it that much harder to get kids by requiring tuba ownership makes no sense to me. We ought to be trying to find ways to encourage more kids to play tuba - not finding ways to add more road blocks to getting kids to play tuba.

[gilmored]

I am in my fifth year of college and I just now bought my own horn. I was in a pretty rough situation in hs. There was an average of 35 kids in the program and between my 6th and 12th grade years I had 7 band directors. I didn't have the means of buying my own horn and felt lucky that I had some old scrap souzy to play on. I also noticed that some of the kids that actually had their own horns didn't care for them the way they should have. This may be just me but I think a parent buying their child an instrument is kind of like buying them a car. If the child doesn't have to pay for it then, in most cases, they won't take care of it. If a child truly wants to play then they will pick up what ever pos is laying around the bandroom and make due until they can afford and appreciate a quality horn. What's wrong with working your butt off for what you want anyway?

[jonesbrass]

Regarding the comment that college students should own their tubas . . . In our band, no Euphonium or tuba player owned his or her instrument, Fort Hays Kansas State College owned them all. As far as I know, I am the only one of that group still playing and I did not purchase a horn until just a couple of months before I graduated.

I can echo these statements. I grew up in rural western PA, not exactly a "high income" area. We had school-furnished instruments, which were student-line 3-valve instruments constantly on the verge of falling apart. In college, we had 12 tuba players. We were worried about makind tuition payments every semester, let alone paying for a tuba. My senior year, my friend and I finally got our own tubas; he worked hard and paid for a used 188, and I worked summer jobs, spring break jobs, weekend jobs, etc. until I could buy my Cerveny 681 BBb. Were any of us serious tuba players with higher aspirations? YES. Am I the only one left playing the tuba regularly today? YES.
At the same time, my high school band director was a baritone player, and he "planted the seed" of desire to purchase my own by showing me a WWBW catalog and talking about what the pros were using. My private lesson teachers did the same. It just took a while before I could pay for those dreams.

[pierso20]

I think a lot of bands go begging even these days to get kids to play tuba period. Making it that much harder to get kids by requiring tuba ownership makes no sense to me. We ought to be trying to find ways to encourage more kids to play tuba - not finding ways to add more road blocks to getting kids to play tuba.

No one said anything about "requiring" ownership. But rather encouraging ownership.

Plus, any school that has THAT hard of a time getting tuba-players has an issue with overall balance anyway. Part of the teachers job is to also create balanced ensembles. The schools I've seen that have almost no tuba players, always seem to have 4 bass clarinets and a TON of saxophones.

Plus lets face it - many HS tuba sections are filled out with marginal players to fill up the section

I would argue though, that many of those players are marginal because 1) They have no means to practice (i.e. no personal instrument) or 2) the teacher "needs" tuba and is willing to stick anyone with the least amount of interest on it.

To number 1) That is why encouraging student's would be important.

People don't seem to like my comparison of Tuba to Clarinet, so I won't make it. But I am not referring to buying students a brand new 5K tuba in the 7th grade. I am talking about students having a horn of their own by 10th or 11th grade, or 12th grade. Initial investment arguments can be a load of BS because I have seen a SLEW of HS trumpet students with $2k+ horns (ESPECIALLY in my suburban areas where there is money for that). Why is it that these players have "expensive" horns but all of a sudden tuba players can't afford the investment? MAYBE it's because the more poor kids play the tuba, but I don't think that is "always" the case.

Overall, I do NOT think it's primarily a money issue. It's an issue of expectation. If we as teachers expect students to try and own an instrument but don't care what tuba players do (ex: not even owning their own mouthpiece!?) then how could we ever expect them to even consider owning their own horn? If it's something you start to talk about in 7th or 8th grade (not expecting them to buy one, but planting seeds and at least giving them resources) I think you would start to see more students owning their own tuba. I for one didn't even THINK about owning my own horn until college. Not because I didn't necessarily want one, but because I didn't think that tuba players even needed to own a horn. No, they don't "need" to. Would it be helpful in building your playing skills? Yes. Would is allow that student to play after HS should he/she want to? Yes. Is it that much more expensive than is already being spent on students? Not necessarily. Are there still people who absolutely can't afford it? Yes. Are there people who CAN afford it and aren't even educated enough to think that owning a tuba is plausible? Yes.

[pierso20]

"Overall, I do NOT think it's primarily a money issue. It's an issue of expectation. If we as teachers expect students to try and own an instrument but don't care what tuba players do ........."

Ah, youth and inexperience make for a happy place to teach aspiring young music students. The reality is that money IS the number one issue. It's time for fifth grade beginning band. Mom goes to the director and says Little Johnny wants to be in band, but they can't afford it. Mr.(or Ms. if you prefer) Band Director says, "Not a problem, the school has an old fiberglass sousaphone that Little Johnny can play." And, that's how Little Johnny gets started. That scenario happens many times every year when it comes time to get the beginning band started. It's a rare occurence when that beginning student comes up to the director without any outside influence and states that he WANTS to play tuba. In the last thirty seven years I've dealt with schools that struggle to have 25 members in their high school bands to bands that perform at the Midwest Clinic. Money was the major factor in owning an instrument thirty seven years ago, and it still is today. Hand-me-down Bundy clarinets are found at every yard sale in the neighborhood. Tubas of ANY type are not. Ownership boils down to money, supply, and demand. 'Expecting" students to purchase their own tuba will result in even fewer students participating in the program, not at all what we are trying to encourage! There are school systems where student ownership of traditionally school-owned instruments may work, but they are certainly in the minority. Just my two cents.

Again, my posts have been misread and not understood. I am not talking about 5th grade student. I am talking about student who has been in band for several years already and plans to continue, at least through high school. I am talking about educating students that owning actually IS an option for tuba players (in which many of them really never even think once about owning). I am also talking about people who owning IS a monetary option. In the suburban communities that I have been around, where students often own $2500 trumpets, why should we not AT LEAST pursue a conversation with students and at least let them know that they CAN own an instrument.

I also NEVER said that it would be a good idea to REQUIRE students to own a a tuba. I merely relayed my belief that creating an expectation that students who can own one, should at least think about it (especially by the time they've decided that they want to play in band/orchestra through high school). This is not about requirements. This is all about encouragement and education. MOST tuba players NEVER even consider owning a tuba. I just wished that music teachers were better at having conversations about this. Even if it is helping the student find a used horn on which they can play/practice at home. As I said before, I am being idealist. Not pragmatic.

It's a rare occurence when that beginning student comes up to the director without any outside influence and states that he WANTS to play tuba.

I do not believe this. I think this is very dependent on the student. I also believe, as I said before, that teachers have to be good at balancing their ensembles.

I will say this again: I am an idealist. Teachers almost NEVER even speak with tuba players, bari sax players, bassoonists, etc. about purchasing an instrument. Yes, they can be expensive. But we are doing them a disservice to not even have a conversation. Students should at least be educated about their instruments and about ownership. There is something much more personal about playing an instrument when you own it. And it would at least allow for increased practice time, which as we know, could really help increase the students desire to continue playing.

Is money an issue? Yes. Should we always expect it is the issue and therefore never broach the subject? No. Afterall, there are tuba players whose parents can (with great ease) afford an instrument but don't buy it and there are clarinet playing parents who barely scrape together enough money for that $50 Bundy clarinet (not to mention can't afford reeds).

Requiring ownership: ? No.
Having a conversation about how to get a student his/her own horn? yes. (ebay, pawn shops, cheap new, scholarship, etc.)

[tubaguy9]

One huge worry (maybe it's been stated before) is that of repairs and such. All other instruments usually include a case. Tubas do not (usually). Cost of a case? at least $500. Awkwardness of carrying a case around if the student decides to take the horn home? It's quite a job to do that around a high school...
If the student can't afford a case and goes for a gig bag, how do you "promise" that the horn won't get damaged?
That was the biggest deal I had when I had my own horn in high school. The horn I had, when used, included a gig bag with it. Later that year, on this forum I was able to find a case for $50, but that was pure luck. (and happens every once in a VERY rare time). Unless as the director, you're willing to keep the horn in your office or have some other way of having protection for it (can you say "band lockers"?) there's not much that can really be done. And in a high school, there's things that happen. People move things around, they horse around in the band room, etc, and very easily damage a tuba. Gig bags are already infamously called dent bags...

[pgym]

One huge worry (maybe it's been stated before) is that of repairs and such. All other instruments usually include a case. Tubas do not (usually). Cost of a case? at least $500. Awkwardness of carrying a case around if the student decides to take the horn home? It's quite a job to do that around a high school...
If the student can't afford a case and goes for a gig bag, how do you "promise" that the horn won't get damaged?
That was the biggest deal I had when I had my own horn in high school. The horn I had, when used, included a gig bag with it. Later that year, on this forum I was able to find a case for $50, but that was pure luck. (and happens every once in a VERY rare time). Unless as the director, you're willing to keep the horn in your office or have some other way of having protection for it (can you say "band lockers"?) there's not much that can really be done. And in a high school, there's things that happen. People move things around, they horse around in the band room, etc, and very easily damage a tuba. Gig bags are already infamously called dent bags...

Ah, but he never SAID that the tuba should be used in school; he said it would give them a horn to play/practice on at home.

[iiipopes]

But if band directors expect students to buy tubas students would plain and simple probably just stop playing.

And there you have it.