Chamber Music Intionation

[DelVento]

Hey all,

I am in a brass quartet this semester, and we plan to stick together for our five years of school. Our instrumentation is 2 trumpets, trombone, and euphonium.

What are some tips you could give us on working through our intonation problems...which seem to be a HUGE issue.

-John

[Thomas Maurice Booth]

In my experiences in brass QUINtets, I have found that when first getting organized, playing music that is tonal and has "standard" (4ths, 5ths, etc.) intervals is a great way to become familiar with each other and to begin to understand the intonation tendencies of the group as a whole. I recommend playing through basic 4-part SATB hymns and chorales.

Also, spend time playing only sustained chords together where the players move through the different notes of the chord. (ie: 1st Trumpet plays the 5th, then the 3rd, then tonic, etc.)

Good luck!

TMB

[MartyNeilan]

I have played in groups (typically with less than stellar players) where everyone is always "right." In that case, intonation is terrible, because everyone expects everyone else to tune to them. You cannot suggest "tuning down" as that implies that your ego is even bigger than theirs.
I have also played where people "tune down." This puts a greater burden on you, but pitch is usually very tight.

[windshieldbug]

If you think the group may be together for a while, spend your rehearsal time targeting specific ensemble characteristics, not just playing music that is fun.

As you learn more in school, your objectives will become clearer.
Ultimately things are more complicated.

For example, what intonation do you want, and where?
Equal Temperament? You're not playing keyboards. Just? Perfect? Well Tempered?
From what center?

What about ensemble development?

Keep your goals simple and stated will keep everyone with the program.

[Wes Krygsman]

When Jim Markey, NY Phil Bass Trombonist, was teaching at Montclair State University, he led the trombone ensemble and started with an exercise that can be done at the beginning of rehearsals. Since learning of it, I have used it in tuba euph quartet, quintet, and some other chamber ensembles, and in each it has seemed to help. It will be a little difficult and long winded to explain without notation, the point is to listen and not read music anyway so here goes.

It starts with a B flat major chord---B flat, D, F. Usually in my quartet we play the B flat first, doubled by the bottom and the top part players. It's the root of the chord, so to make a solid foundation for the rest of the chord it needs to be in tune. Listen and adjust to each other until you hear the waves/pulses match up. (when out of tune it sounds a little like "woo-woo-woo," and the slower that gets the closer you are).

Add the F which is the 5th of the chord, and listen for the same thing as you did for the last one(usually thinking of raising the pitch helps, as many people hear a flatter 5th as "perfect" but the waves stop when it's actually in tune). Last the 3rd is added, and in major, you have to lower the pitch a little to match the chord.

So once that can be done on this chord, you play slow whole notes (quarter = 60 bpm or less, breathing anywhere) doing this...

B flat major (4 beats)-->B flat minor (just move the third down a half step to D flat while the others stay the same for 4 beats)-->B flat diminished (lower the 5th a half step to F flat (E natural) while the others stay the same for 4 beats)-->A major (lower the old root half a step A, C#, E is the new major chord)

I hope that's clear, only one pitch moves every bar changing the chord major->minor->diminished->1/2 step lower major. Keep going as low as the group can. Doing this exercise and actually paying attention, listening as hard as you can, will help the group's intonation. When the group masters this, try switching parts, like having the normal bass voice take the 5th or 3rd, it makes it a challenge again.

Sorry if that's confusing. If there are any questions about this I'll try my best to answer them, but it's one of those things best demonstration in person by a coach or teacher, and not on the internet in typed words.

[TUBUD]

I find when it comes to tuning in a quintet or quartet there are two rules to follow
1. tune from the bottom, the tuba is always right. If someone disagrees with that- 2. see rule one

[Scott Sutherland]

If you were a quintet, the answer would be simple: Verne Reynolds Intonation Exercises for Brass Quintet. Along with Bach Chorales, these helped our quintet immensely in the early stages of learning to play together. Being a quartet, I would stick with the book of 22 Bach Chorales published by Robert King (playable by quartet or quintet). Listen and record yourselves (always record). Break down problem chords in the way that was previously mentioned, tune the root first, then add the fifth and finally the third.

Often the problem is that individuals may have difficulties hearing when it is out of tune and how to fix it. For this, I would recommend the Tune-Up Systems by Steve Colley. This is the best book/CD system I've used to develop intonation skills.

Lastly, every decent musician must read Christopher Leuba's A Study of Musical Intonation. Great book that will give you everything you need to know about intonation and provide time-tested ways of overcoming typical problems.

Good luck!

[Roger Lewis]

My quintet works on this with the Guggenberger flow studies. They are written as duets and we play each exercise twice, once with the horn, trombone and tuba on the bottom part and the trumpets on the top part. Then we play it again but switching lines. We go through all the keys this way and listen until everything is lining up. We do this religiously at the start of every rehearsal.

It works.

Roger

[Tubainsauga]

Intonation, balance, and blend are all inexorably linked. This is very important when tuning chords, as an a chord that is out of balance or poorly blended will never really ring in tune. Also, when working on Bach chorales, pick apart any trouble spots by identifying the voice with the "juicy" notes and start building off that adding one voice at a time.

[Alex C]

2/ If the problems can be identified and prove to be insurmountable, consider not necessarily committing to several years with this specific combination of players.

Great advice.

[David Schwartz]

John,

As an ensemble exercise, play Pezel's Sarabande in all keys. The tuba part is a descending major scale, repeated, then an ascending major scale, repeated. Mind the repeats!

I chose this piece as a missing-part play-along for my intonation practice play-along booklet, Breakfast. The ensemble can discover tuning quirks by varying balance and articulation of the voices.

David

[MaryAnn]

Almost all the above assumes that people will be able to correct their intonation "just with practice." well....if you do not have the background to know what good intonation sounds like, practice will just get you a more practiced version of the bad intonation you are always doing.

I agree completely with the poster who said that the problem comes in when everyone thinks that he is "right" and everyone else is wrong. That is the exact opposite of what I call the "professional" approach to intonation, which is that "everyone else is right and I must adjust to them."

Once you have agreed that you all need to have an attitude that everyone else is right, THEN you can look for something that can actually teach you about what intonation actually is.

Buy Steve Colley's TuneUp System; split four ways it should be affordable, and it will teach you exactly what you need to know. No more wondering what to do. I've seen it work wonders with people whose only problem was that they did not know what to listen for. Otherwise you can spend an entire career not knowing how to play in tune.

MA

[Phil Dawson]

I found one quick easy way to get a quintet in tune with each other. Before you play each piece (in rehearsal) play the scale of the tune you are going to play in unison in whole notes - slow tempo. Sounds easy but you will be amazed at how bad it can sound. This exercise helps with the chops, the ears, and the intonation. The goal is not to have a pissing match as to who is right or wrong but to get to a pitch by mutual adjustments. Hopefully everyone in your group can hear a scale and the individual pitches. If they can't you have some serious problems when it comes to playing in tune.
Good Luck, Phil

[imperialbari]

Without disagreeing with others my view on good intonation stresses these points:

It is impossible to play in tune, if one only can play in a few keys. To know the intonation tendencies of ones instrument thoroughly, one shall be able to play all around the circle of fifths. Preferably also in other modes than Major. Not all half steps are the same in any tonal situation. By playing seriously around the full spectre of keys one learns to negotiate pitch adjustments on the melodic level. When one is able to do so, adjusting in chord situations becomes much easier. But really learning to handle horizontal as well as vertical pitch is a two-way process. Part of that process is about making oneself aware about the most often uneven grid of pitches of ones instrument. However it is worthwhile learning to adjust in its own right rather than adapt one self singularly to one instrument. That way ones efforts are easily transferrable to just about any instrument of a reasonable quality.

One shall be aware of the most often conflicting functions of thirds in scales and in chords. Stable chords demand flattish major thirds. Leading notes preferably are sharp. Is the melodic or the chordal function most important in a given situation?

Fifths sound best if they are dead-on in the Pythagorean sense. But if a fifth is overpowered, it often will sound out of tune anyway.

My approach to position of my main tuning slide is statistical. If I mostly have to lip up or play shorter trombone positions to fit the ensemble, then I push in the main slide. And vice versa.

In ensemble one good way of hearing good pitch is about striving for the overtones to blend. I lean towards the bass steering the tuning, but only if the bass plays with a very good sense of intervals. If the lead and the bass work well together pitchwise (without their scales just being equally off good tuning), then the background voices shall adapt their pitches.

There are certain types of players which are not worthwhile investing too much work into. Those who think their instruments came in tune from the factory. Those never using the intonation aids (triggers, extra valves, (hand) slide adaption, hand in bell adjustments). One simple test is about the interval between the major second above the 2nd partial and the same note above the 3rd partial. Players letting this interval come out flat are bound to cause problems.

Probably forgot several important matters.

Klaus

[Phil Dawson]

Klaus,
I hope that you didn't understand that I was suggesting that a quintet should only play in a few keys. Yes it is important to play in tune in all keys and my daily practice routine includes playing all major, minor, scales and chords, 7th chords, and all traditional modes, and several chord progressions in all keys plus a few other exercises that promote good intonation in addition to other facets of playing . My suggestion was for a quick easy way to get a group playing TOGETHER in tune and I was assuming (hoping) that the individual players had a good foundation in the basics you talked about for playing in tune.
Phil

[imperialbari]

I kind of answered more to certain postings in the thread than in the context of your specific ensemble, about which I cannot have a any detailed opinion whatsoever.

To your last posting I might say something very biased by my education and playing, which has been versatile, but not always with very good ensembles.

The best intonation builder is vocal type music, more specifically the church chorale as known in the northern European continent since early baroque. There are strong responsibilities in all parts even if the alto line often comes out a bit bland, melodically that is. If intonation, balance, phrasing, and whatever ensemble aspect is not top notch, the music sounds like dirt. Some players refuse to play that type of music because they know it reveals their shortcomings. They much rather prefer music with extended chords where they can hide their bad tuning.

Bach chorales are often mentioned, but as a person, who can write plain chorales as well as chorales in Bach style, I will say that Bach’s harmonic progressions often are very complicated with extended suspense notes. They are good training, but only if the players can hear their functions in the settings. And then there is the problem of most chorales being 4 part. Many quintets let the trumpets and the horn play SAT and double the bass line in octaves between trombone and tuba. That is the option one should never choose, mostly because the horn is a bad tenor and it is plain silly to double the two loudest instruments on the same line. Let one trumpet, horn, trombone, and tuba play SATB (The tuba in the 8' or the 16' octave depending on its size and pitch). The other trumpet takes the piccolo an octave above the melody in selected passages. Or double the melody in horn and trombone an octave apart. One trumpet plays the tenor line an octave up, the other plays the alto loco.

Play simple renaissance music like Susato in not too embellished settings. Polyphonic music like Dowland takes much more musicianship and hearing abilities. Still it is worthwhile, if you master it.

Some romantic choir music is very worthwhile, but also calls for good sense of harmony.

I am retired and don’t work for money any more. It is no coincidence, that much of the music, I make available for the free download fits what I speak about above here. I simply take up the challenge of making music available in the form I would have wanted available while I taught. My selections are very versatile, but I of course emphasize important elements from the music of my own country. All editions (almost) however have text in English. A few samples of stuff made for myself and friends may also be found. My project is Yahoo based, because that is what I can afford. Please present yourself with your full name, your instrument, your ensembles, and if applicable where you teach or study. Current projects are about a duo and a trio by Beethoven, but there also are 5 part settings. And most project have versions relevant for low brasses. There also are scale and interval study materials. The scales are adapted to every single pitch of low brasses.

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... 0%20Index/


Klaus

[imperialbari]

John, I didn’t say anything, that I didn’t mean, but I did a common TubeNet error and answered to the thread rather than to your original posting. I had forgotten the make-up of your ensemble being two trumpets, trombone, and euph.

My main thesis is still that any ensemble shall be able to play in tune despite different pitches of instruments (like D and C trumpets, Bb/F horn & trombone, and Eb playing quintet music in B minor or A major), but 4 Bb instruments in a group have some options of their own.

If you go to my scale practicing system, you will be able to match keys if the trumpets play from the Bb treble clef version and the trombone/euph from the bass clef euph version. Just playing around the circle of fifths in the midrange would do. Make sure to adjust the articulation in tongued as well as in legato.

You may want to start unisono with all playing Major. You may later on want to play in thirds/sixths between the trumpets and the low ones respectively. You may do so by pairing the following modes and finding the right place to start the cycle:

Major & Phrygian
Dorian & Lydian
Phrygian & Mixolydian
Lydian & Pure Minor
Mixolydian & Locrian
Pure Minor & Major
Locrian & Dorian

In my country many hymns are associated with church seasons, and they are hardly ever played out of their respective seasons. You benefit is that my Danish hymn settings may be chosen alone for their key and/or rhythm to practice certain ensemble aspects without hurting anybody’s sense of the Church year.

Klaus

[DelVento]

Thanks everyone so much for the kind tips and suggestions.

I found a free intonation practice tool online that I think we should all be familiar with. Tom Ball, jazz euphoniumist, puts this intonation trainer together...

http://www.dwerden.com/intonation-helper.cfm" target="_blank

[Philip J Fry]

I think that this is an issue that you should bring up with your chamber music coach. I am quite confident that he has more than enough knowledge and professional level experience to diagnose the problems present.

[DelVento]

Our coach is tubist Scott Mendoker (with the philadelphia brass, formerly NY phil, and studies with Arn Jacobs).

He does indeed "fix" problems but he can't be at every rehearsal we have, so I'm looking for some good techniques to check intonation during rehearsal.