A 'Schillaphone 1291' BBb copy?

[bisontuba]

HI-
They have it marked wrong at Jim Laabs music, but look what now if offered on ebay by Jim Laabs/Schiller-a 'clone' of a Miraphone 1291 BBb ! And check the price! If anyone is heading to their store, play this horn and let us know how it plays.
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@Juno.com" target="_blank

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0556432395" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

OK. What the heck is a Bb/A tuba?

[Bob Kolada]

Cool!

[WakinAZ]

A grand more than the Schillbrunner. I might get interested if they do a 191 rotary clone.

Eric "still on the sidelines but watching very, very closely" L.

[Bob Kolada]

A grand more than the Schillbrunner. I might get interested if they do a 191 rotary clone.

Eric "still on the sidelines but watching very, very closely" L.

Would that really be that different from the "Schilbrunner"? 5/4 rotary Bb vs 5/4 rotary Bb....


I'm waiting either for a used Schiller 1291 for -$2000 OR a used Miraphone 1291 that the seller can only unload for $3000 since the new Schillers are so popular.

[Kevin Hendrick]

OK. What the heck is a Bb/A tuba?

Let me translate:

We don't know a thing about tubas, but we know most of the ones that come through here with valves like these only have 4 buttons to push. We have seen cornets from years ago that that had this type of valves that had an extra rotating valve on them that some old guy said it made play in A. So since this is a BBb tuba, that thingy must make it play in AA.

Makes sense to me -- it's in "Bb" and it's "A Tuba" ...

[Dan Schultz]

Damn.... I went and bought the wrong thing. And... now I'm sorry!

Honestly....

I was on my way home from Shrine Band tonight and decided to stop at the grocery for some red delicious apples. The grocer had some beautiful, big red delicious apples for $1.99 a pound. I picked out four of them and was about to leave the produce department when I saw 5 lb bags of somewhat smaller Michigan red delicious apples for $3.99 a bag. Well.... I put the big apples back and grabbed a bag of the less expensive ones.

Bad move. When I got home and cut one of those cheap apples, it was not the super-white, crunchy variety that I REALLY wanted... but one of the less than desirable (in my opinion) varieties.

I'll eat these apples but I won't enjoy them as much as I would have those nice, big, juicy, crunchy ones.

I should have brought home the more expensive ones. I guess lots of things work that way. You either buy what you REALLY want... or just settle for a little less... even though you sometimes can't see the difference.

[Bob Kolada]

Does that also include tuba bells Dan?

[Dan Schultz]

Does that also include tuba bells Dan?

Yup.

[k001k47]

Today, I was in the cola section of a local convenience store looking for a soda to buy. I only had a dollar and some loose change in my pocket -which, after counting, wasn't the $1.60something I needed for a >big mega corporation brand< Coca Cola classic; I decided I'd settle for a 99 cent RC cola. Now, I may be biased because I loved RC cola as a kid, but it was one of the best sodas I've had in a while. Perhaps it was because I saved a few cents, or perhaps it was because RC is on to something with it's formula. Some people don't care for RC cola, but I love it. Point is, I bought the cheaper, lesser bought product and was throughly satisfied with the decision.

Oh wait, we're talking about tubas. Yeah, the Miraphone 1291 beats the pants off the Schiller BBb/A tuba. I'd really like to get my hands on one of these Schillers, just to see what all the buzz and hype is about. I'm sure you get what you pay for (maybe a little more). Hey, maybe I could buy one and wrap a "tone belt" around the bell and cover up the engraving. No one would be able to tell the difference! Especially after I use that one computer program to develop a "world class sound".

[bisontuba]

HI-
Now M&M has the BBb 1291 copy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2759.l1259" target="_blank

mark

[bisontuba]

Dan-
Let that be a lesson--instead of getting Michigan apples, go for the 'Coe Fuji' variety...
They are inexpensive, and taste as good or even better...
mark

[tubaforce]

I wondered about the "trill-rotor" LOL! It's supposed to be a flat whole-step, according to a couple of the sellers! Maybe they just copied the Chinese "copy", wich says Bb/A. instead of Bb/Ab?

[Dan Schultz]

Well... as you may have already noticed in another thread.... I have BOTH a Miraphone 1291 AND one of the M & M copies here now. What I said earlier about the apples applies very well. The performance of these two horns is very close to identical. In fact... the copy might even be a little bit better.

Yeah.... I've found some things on the copy that are 'not quite right' but those issues are very tough to quantify. With the vast difference in price, I would say that the M & M clone is a very good value. The clone plays great!

[iDot2K3]

I just purchased the Shiller 5 Valve BBb version of the 1291. I am nearly completely happy with it. It is built like a tank has a wonderfully ominous deep tone to it and I thought better slotting than the AH 4V rotor. I went to Jim Laabs to check out the full line and came back with the 5V. I doubt I'll ever need the 5th, but I know when to use it if needed. It is nearly identical to the 1291, but just a very slightly smaller bore. I have no idea why, but then again if the list on the 1291 is really around 17K I got a bargain. I am saddened that it is a slightly sharp instrument it seems. I have the main pulled quite a bit... and really am not happy with this, butI don't know what else to do. I am hoping it will change as I adjust to the instrument.

I will have a more detailed review of the sound characteristics in the near future. I just purchased several new MP's to be more "well rounded" and versatile. I had been playing on a Dennis Wick 4L since high school and took it to the top of the 'i' at The Ohio State Univ. In the last few months I picked up a PT50, PT84, and DW 3XL. Currently my thoughts are that the PT50 has its applications, but may not be a great all around MP. I am loving the control I have with the 84, and am still working with the DW3XL to see where it fits in. I am not sure I see a huge difference between 84 and 3XL yet. I'll post on this too. All in all though great instrument. I was the head repairman for the OSUMB for the 5 years I was there and think the build of the 5V AH Shiller is rock-steady. Let me know if you have any questions about it and I'll answer if I can.

Andrew

[Dan Schultz]

..... I am saddened that it is a slightly sharp instrument it seems. I have the main pulled quite a bit... and really am not happy with this, butI don't know what else to do. ..... Andrew

You posted the same comment in another thread and my response was similar.... If the horn plays sharp... send it back from whence it came. There's absolutely no point in having to work your butt off to make a couple of notes in tune. The guys who import these horns know of the potential problem. It can only be cured with a longer main tuning slide. If they won't comply... take your business elsewhere.

I've said it before... Some of the 'clones' are good buys. But... the fact remains that if a horn is not playable it's worth NOTHING!

It isn't just the Asians. Remember the Conn 4J that had a 4th valve circuit so flat is wasn't usable? Or how about the Olds/Reynolds tubas that had a flat 1st valve circuit?

The problem CAN be fixed. But... unless the dealers know there is a problem... it won't be.

[Alex C]

The resale value of a Schiller/Vento/Wiseman/Sanders/Winston/Wurzbach/Barrington/Dalyan/M&M/Ravel/Lark/
Eastman/JinYin/Berkley/HansMueller/Maybach/Vournelli/Maestro is a good gauge of the real value of these import instruments.

On the other hand, a well maintained Miraphone/MW and instruments of similar manufacture will hold their value quite well and will attract a buyer easily once you reach the point of selling it. The instrument you choose must play at an acceptable level for the demands of your performance enviornment. Personally, I wouldn't encourage my students along these lines. That would be advice from experience, not snobbery.

[MartyNeilan]

I haven´t tried on saturday,the last day again but I´m pretty sure that the crowds may have taken some efforts to destroy it completely.unfortunately the Jinbao people didn´t even have some piston valve oil handy so the pistons finally may have seized up...

ANY new /tight pistons will seize up if not regularly lubricated every time the instrument is played. There have been many nightmare stories of Yamaha pistons binding due to the extremely tight tolerance, often only fixed by a competent lapping.

[Dan Schultz]

I haven´t tried on saturday,the last day again but I´m pretty sure that the crowds may have taken some efforts to destroy it completely.unfortunately the Jinbao people didn´t even have some piston valve oil handy so the pistons finally may have seized up...

ANY new /tight pistons will seize up if not regularly lubricated every time the instrument is played. There have been many nightmare stories of Yamaha pistons binding due to the extremely tight tolerance, often only fixed by a competent lapping.

I know Kurt's (belltrouble) comments were from last year. But... some may not know that Kurt Klingspor passed away last Christmas season. He was a good friend.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1371152044

[naplesbobT]

Dan, "The Village Tinker" is correct, about the tuning faults. However, here is a short summary of my experience with the Schillers". My main instrument is the euph. I play a Besson "Prestige", and love the horn. Best one of my long playing career, and I have played many. I play in a number of bands, including a pro band in Florida, and our band comes up short on a tuba sometimes. So I wanted to be able to double to help out the band. I did not want to spend mega bucks on a new horn. So I ended up buying a Schiller. Got the horn, and it played 1/2 tone sharp. Fellow tubist from the Canadian Armed Forces Band, said he solved the problem with a new, longer, tuning slide, got Laab to get me one, and after a tremendous amount of time to get it into the U.S., it, fully extended, still play 15 cents sharp. Ended up getting them to agree to exchange for a new horn. Worked with a fellow over the phone to test intonation (which mea culpa, I should have done the first time) and lo and behold it tunes perfectly. So much
for quality control. The horn is a compact model, American Heritage (AH) BBb, 4 piston, 1 rotary (listed as compensating?), 18.5 in. bell, large bore, brass laquer with silver trim. Tremendous sound, very heavy. The best I can determine it is a knock-off of the Miraphone 191. The 191, per the Woodwinds Brass catalog goes at 18K, full retail, without mpc and case. I realize you can dicker and knock this down about 40%. The Schiller is less than 1/2 that reduced cost, landed, with case and mpc. So, in my case, I should have handled the first part of the deal differently, again Mea Culpa, but I ended up with a horn, that for the cost, and my purpose I am pleased with. It is a beautiful horn, big, full sound that would fill a hall. Play before you buy, and be picky, and you will be satisfied.