Arnold Jacobs Helleberg

Dave Roberts · Post by **Dave Roberts** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:35 pm

There are many copies available. Check out Brian Fredriksen's WindSong Press web site. I think he still carries one of the copies. I have one of the Chuck D. (Canadian Brass) original copies, and, it may be the most exact. Great mouthpiece by the way. Cooley's is a close match as well. Check his site out. Good luck. D

Daryl Fletcher · Post by **Daryl Fletcher** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:32 pm

You can also get the new ones here:
http://www.kellymouthpieces.com/cbrass.asp

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:50 pm

psst...

http://www.warburton-usa.com/default.htm

This is the guy who made the original copies for the Candian Brass line. He can also do variants. FWIW, his prices are reasonable and his work is very good.

brianf · Post by **brianf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:54 pm

A sore subject but here's the real story:

A number of years ago a deal was done with Mr Jacobs and the Canadian Brass. Warburton did the duplication and Mr Jacobs was supposed to recieve a few dollars per mouthpiece. Seems the royalty was only paid once, Mr Jacobs was not a happy camper, the CB claimed they overpaid him, I checked with Warburton and found out Mr Jacobs was indeed underpaid. Told CB along with the line "Even if Arnold is wrong, he's right" (that's how I always worked with him) and "It's only money, it's not worth the argument." Nothing happened.

Mr Jacobs passed away and I put his son together with Warburton. They worked out the same deal but no royalties have been paid. I was selling them and all of a sudden the price rose big time. Then they came out with a "J" series MP, used Mr Jacobs' name in their advertising (it was not the same MP) and (the final blow) at a show sold these for under my cost at the table next to me. I got ticked off, dropped the mouthpiece and told them the Jacobs family did not want them to use the Jacobs name.

A few months later more crap flies - seems that the Canadian Brass got a batch from Warburton with their name (CB) on it. In the meantime Warburton had the Jacobs name on their web for this MP - now what's the REAL Jacobs MP? I called Warburton and Terry removed it immediately (it was Terry's sales manager who created the problem, not Terry himself). Now the Canadian Brass has the Jacobs mouthpiece, still no royalties to the family (actually these were to be donated to ITEA's Jacobs scholarship fund making matters worse). Finally here's a good one - seems the Canadian Brass has a Jacobs SOLO model made by Kelly. As far as we know (including Bob Rusk who did the initial deal with CB), this is a mouthpiece that Mr Jacobs never saw although his name is on it!

As you can see, this is a whole mess. The Jacobs mouthpiece is great - I use it all the time and a lot of people love it. Seems to me that for the $140+ it sold for, someone can cough up $5 to a scholarship fund with Mr Jacobs' name on it. Everyone is pissed off at me, Warburton, the Canadian Brass and even Mr Jacobs' son! I'm ticked off that the Candian Brass could come out with a mouthpiece with anyone's name on it when they know he never saw it. Bob Rusk wants major brass players to write to the CB telling them off.

I'm sick of the whole thing! It's a great mouthpiece but (as I told the CB when the deal first went down) "Try telling me that Michael Jordan doesn't get a royalty for every time a shoe is sold with his name on it." Everyone agreed but no one paid. So, who's getting screwed? Some kid who might get a scholarship through ITEA's Jacobs scholarship fund - hey, I have a gauge with Mr Jacobs' name on it - I pay a royalty and I don't have the bankroll of the Canadian Brass or Warburton. Fair is fair!

Now that I have spilled the beans, lets see how long it takes for my phone to ring from one of these guys!

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:58 pm

What a mess! I can understand why you feel the way you do, Brian.

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:26 pm

It seems like the real problem here, unfortunately, is the lack of an attorney.

Brian, you might be able to find one sympathetic to the cause (possibly a tuba player) who might help pro bono.

Good luck Brian and keep fighting the good fight. The "CB" are big business comparatively and I think that legal counsel might be the best option to get what Mr. Jacobs' trust fund deserves.

An aside:

Terry does have a copy of one of Mr. Jacobs' Helleberg mouthpieces on file to reproduce. From looking at the Kelly version, the rim looks nothing like the Warburton version.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:38 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:There are many copies available. Check out Brian Fredriksen's WindSong Press web site. I think he still carries one of the copies. I have one of the Chuck D. (Canadian Brass) original copies, and, it may be the most exact. Great mouthpiece by the way. Cooley's is a close match as well. Check his site out. Good luck. D

The Canadian Brass Arnold Jacobs mouthpiece is not the same as the Canadian Brass Daellenbach model I've had. The Floyd Cooley Helleberg is a great mouthpiece (I've been using one a lot lately) but isn't even close to the Canadian Brass (Warburton/whatever-you-want-to-call-it) Arnold Jacobs Model.

To me the Jacobs mouthpieces were wide with a narrow, sharp rim and a deep cup. The Cooley mouthpiece has a wider, flatter rim and more rounded inner "bite" and is not nearly as wide or deep...the Cooley is more like a Helleberg 7B.

FWIW, unless Jacobs had his mouthpiece way modified along the way, the copies are not even close to the so-called "original" Conn Helleberg from the 1920s or so that he was said to have played on for most of his career. I've owned several "original" Conn Hellebergs, and although they were both slightly different, they were closer to Conn Helleberg 7Bs than any of the so-called "copies" of it.

Perhaps Brian F. will post on how accurate of a copy the CB/Warburton actually is...

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:41 pm

Matthew Gilchrest wrote: From looking at the Kelly version, the rim looks nothing like the Warburton version.

I haven't seen a Kelly "Jacobs" (or whatever you want to call it)...

Is this the same Kelly that's doing the plastic mouthpieces?

Is this being done in plastic or brass?

First I've heard of it...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:52 pm

Are folks really that sensitive to tiny differences in mouthpieces? I've owned various makes of hellebergs over the years (even the CB Warburton AJ model) .

I might be able to tell some difference doing A-B tests, but frankly, after about 15 minutes, they all feel the same to me. I surprised myself the other day by discovering that I'd mistakenly put a 7B Helleberg in my bag instead of my usual Conn helleberg. I must've played it for two weeks and never noticed--they look the same if you're not too observant.

It'd be interesting to do a blindfolded test to see who can correctly identify all of the various makes and models of the Helleberg design by feel alone.

The danger is that it might turn out like this:

http://www.americastestkitchen.com/tastinglab/741.htm

I still wonder if there's not a lot of this in the whole business of mouthpieces:

brianf · Post by **brianf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:05 pm

The Jacobs MP started out as a 30's era Helleberg but Mr Jacobs had some modifications done. The throat has been bored out and the rim is different - I own an unmodified 30's Helleberg. There is no Helleberg like this, the Cooley MP is a varient on a 7C, the present Conn Helleberg is a different animal from the 30's era - I have a few of these around also!

Haugan · Post by **Haugan** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:18 pm

The Conn-Helleberg that Jacobs used for most of his career is indeed a stock model 30s Conn-Helleberg HOWEVER (and this is a BIG however) the machining process used when this particular mouthpiece was made was subject to a large degree of variance from mouthpiece to mouthpiece, and no two from this period look or play exactly alike. I was fortunate enough to take this treasured Helleberg home overnight at one point when I was living in Chicago and determine EXACTLY how this particular Helleberg differed from the others of the period and I can say without any hesitation that a GOOD COPY of this mouthpiece DOES NOT EXIST. I have the intention of eventually making one available hopefully at a price that is competitive with other stock model mouthpieces and not as some kind of ruse to gouge money out of tubaist's pockets! Hang in there and be patient, help is on the way.

Leland · Post by **Leland** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:18 am

Haugan wrote:... Hang in there and be patient, help is on the way.

Well, that's all good, but what if it's just not for me?

Haugan · Post by **Haugan** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:51 pm

Then Leland, we'll just have to go lookin' for what works for ye.

Matt G · Post by **Matt G** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:33 am

bloke wrote:
It seems like the real problem here, unfortunately, is the lack of an attorney.

...to work for a percentage of what?

Keep reading....

Brian, you might be able to find one sympathetic to the cause (possibly a tuba player) who might help pro bono.

Not all law folk are looking for money all of the time. Heck, lots of 'em like to bill time for free to charitable organizations. It helps when them IRS buggers come to collect.

brianf · Post by **brianf** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:57 am

This is a dispute between tuba players and I hope can be resolved within the tuba community and not the legal system. Let's hope it doesn't get to the lawyers but having a mouthpiece with the name of a prominent player on it (when that player has passed away and never saw the mouthpiece) is a major problem. I'm not into taking on a prominent tuba player but Mr Jacobs cannot speak for himself - guess I am forced into it!

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:27 am

I was completely surprised and disappointed to read how Mr. Jacobs' name and legacy are being misappropriated by Canadian Brass.

In trying to think how I am going to respond, I decided that my response is to return the mouthpiece to Chuck at CB and ask for my money back because of their poor business practices. I doubt I'll get anything back but I am compelled to do something.

I'll keep you posted if and when there's a response.

brianf · Post by **brianf** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:27 am

Yes, you are right. You must think twice before posting about CB here. I thought about it a lot since I found out about this last August. I've thought about it even more before deciding to take them on, Brian vs. CB doesn't sound good on paper. If Mr Jacobs was still here he would have told me to take care of this.

I don't want to but I have to!

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:49 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:Are folks really that sensitive to tiny differences in mouthpieces?

Surprisingly so, at least for some. I have a good friend who is a pro horn player with a touring Broadway show. He not only can tell the difference between two supposedly identical cups, but the difference can be heard in his playing. The same goes for rims.....I recently started using a new (screw) rim and liked it a lot because it increased my endurance quite a bit; he tried it, and we did a play-listen test using the same cup and my rim vs his rim. It is possible to see a difference in the rims but it is not any huge visible difference. I could hear, and he could hear, and his partner could hear, a difference in both his tone and articulation between the rims. It opened up his high range but lessened his tone quality. But he liked the rim so much that he bought one (he had them send two "identical" rims, one of which screwed on his cup and the other wouldn't due to thread differences) and he bought the "good" one and sent the other back. THEN because of the difference in sound he changed to a slightly larger cup, and is happy with that setup.
Some of the very high level pros are THAT sensitive to equipment.
Me....I can play on anything for a couple days, but then things start to fall apart and I have to go back to my standard cup-rim setup. So I guess I'm sensitive too, but the results are pretty far down the scale.
MA

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:16 pm

MaryAnn wrote:Surprisingly so, at least for some. I have a good friend who is a pro horn player with a touring Broadway show. He not only can tell the difference between two supposedly identical cups, but the difference can be heard in his playing.

For horn and trumpet, I can understand--the durned things are so TEENY that small changes could have a proportionally large effect. But we're talking about tuba mouthpieces here...and I'd think that they'd be a lot more forgiving.

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:30 pm

I believe we could probably argue the mouthpiece thing until Jesus comes again and not come to a consensus. Personally, I believe there are noticable differences. Can I tell the difference between two PT-36s, two Conn Hellebergs, etc.? No. But, I sure can tell the difference between my Mike Finn 3H and my Conn Helleberg.

As to Brian's post above: I think it is sad that there is a dispute concerning Jake's mouthpiece, but I admire Brian's loyalty to Jake and to Jake's family. I am looking forward to the Army Band Tuba-Euph Conference. I have wanted to hear his lecture for a long time now.

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