Controlled studies of tonal differences?

[imperialbari]

People with good ears can hear which partial is played on an instrument. If these people also have perfect pitch, they only have to do a minimum off systematic thinking to tell the key of an instrument.

Klaus

[sloan]

People with good ears can hear which partial is played on an instrument. If these people also have perfect pitch, they only have to do a minimum off systematic thinking to tell the key of an instrument.

Klaus

I think that if this level of thinking is required, then it is a difference without a meaning.

[rocksanddirt]

I tend to agree with Hal. and also, many (if not most) listeners have a hard time differentiating even pitch down low (let alone 'tone quality'). The differences in sound and style between differnent keys of horn and different style of horns of the same key are important only to Us, the players of then instrument. NOBODY ELSE CARES.

[imperialbari]

Yes, let’s all play washtub bass. So much cheaper.

K

[MaryAnn]

I agree with Klaus in principle; even a moderately competent tuba player can tell whether s/he is playing a CC or a BBb, based on what comes out (or doesn't.) Case in point....at a tuba/euph conference locally a few years ago, I asked to play a Besson Eb. They handed me a tuba, I blew the below-the staff Eb into it, and muff came out. Said I, "that sounds funny." Said they, "Oh, we handed you the CC by mistake. Try this one." And an Eb came out of that one....

MA

[Donn]

It's possible to hear which partial is being played by a brass player - particularly a low brass player. If there isn't a bunch of percussion (or loud/high instruments) playing, the partials reveal themselves by which (very high) pitches are in the mix of the sound above the note being played.

That's what I think, but ... I seem to recall that some time ago, Rick showed by means of charts and graphs that each note emitted by any tuba, comprises the full harmonic series for that note, whatever the natural series for the tuba. So a Bb or Eb tuba would produce precisely the same harmonics, for the same note. It flies in the face of reason, but I don't have the instruments to measure this stuff for myself.

[imperialbari]

Have relevant measurements of overtone contents been made on basis of professional top rate players playing various pitches, types, and sizes of tubas?

From there it might be interesting to measure the sound of a large number of players to extract patterns of evenness versus unevenness in various levels of playing.

Even more competent players will sense a difference in sound between partials even on better tubas. Part of their artistry/journeyman’s pride will be evening out the sound over partials. Like string player strive to keep the sound even over the inherent differences between strings.

One method in the treatment of the very important leading note connections is about keeping the leading note and the target note on the same partial.

In many brasses the differences between partials are especially obvious between the 5th and and the 6th partials. The 5th partials tend a bit to the warm or dull side. The 6th partials rather tend to the bright side. The problem is worsened by the 5th partial notes often being flat compared to the equally tempered scale, whereas the 6th partials tend sharp in the same comparison.

Players finding the 6th partial notes forming the limit area of their upper range hardly will experience the sound discrepancies mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Are not the majority of notes the same length tubing on CC, or BBb? So for those there cannot be any meaningful tonal difference? Only notes which are shorter on CC can really sound different - those played open, or with just 2nd valve. Once the 1st valve goes down you are playing the same length tube as with a BBb (so are in the same partial).

My Neptune can be played as a BBb, as well as a CC and I don't think it makes any difference to its general tone. I think it makes a difference to the player if the tuba is CC, or BBb - but not to the audience. The differences in sound between different models, is far more than that caused by different key.

However when it comes to F and Eb, I do notice an appreciable tonal difference! Now could that be because Eb tubas tubes generally make an extra loop?

[imperialbari]

The huge Neptune possibly is one of the few tubas working well in two pitches.

I would like to see a photo of the conversion set alone as well as mounted.

Klaus

[Donn]

Does this mean that a player, in a room alone with a listener, and with an arbitrary instrument, can play an arbitrary note (with arbitrary choice of alternate fingerings), and the hearer can (unaided by any mechanical or electronic device) say, "That tone is speaking via the Nth partial."?

Yes. With two qualifications, though. First, of course, we may assume that the listener has a prodigious gift for this discrimination - I mean, if you're asking me if I can tell, why of course not!

Second, we assume something about the acoustics of a brass instrument that is not really universally agreed upon. When you play an G right below the staff for example, on a C tuba, as you know that's the "3rd partial". My understanding is that it is, simply, the harmonic series of that length of tube, minus the 1st and 2nd partials ... so the next overtone will be C, etc.

If we're wrong about this, as I alluded to earlier, and that G comes out as a full harmonic series starting with G, then the next overtone is the F above, etc. - and all tubas sound the same on that G, no matter how much tubing was involved (and of course ignoring the differences that really make tubas sound different.)

Anyway, with conditions, we may say that in principle it's possible to distinguish between the G/C/E/... overtone series produced by a C tuba, and the G/B/D/... series from a Bb tuba.

[djwesp]

I don't consider it a gift, I consider it rather useless... HOWEVER, I can tell when just about any brass instrument is playing in the fifth partial. It doesn't have to be in context, so I'm not entirely sure if it is the timbre or if it is the tuning.

Considering I have nothing, nowhere close to perfect pitch, I'll say timbre.

[DonShirer]

To answer the original question, it would take an extraordinary listener to tell the difference between a BBb and a CC tuba, even when played alone. I taught musical acoustics for ten years and can barely tell the difference between an Eb and a BBb tuba when listening to them alone, and cannot when they are in an ensemble.
But some other responders have said that there is no difference in overtone structure between the same note played on different partials on different tubas. There is, but I doubt many people could tell the difference without an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer just by listening.

[eupher61]

The tonal differences between large and small bore tubas of the same pitch are at least as extreme as BBb to F.

And, no...the fundamental of a pitch is not always heard. The audible, or inaudible to some, harmonics are dependent on the fundamental, not the primary pitch being sounded.

[MaryAnn]

One more: say a note is played with the "fewest possible" valves down, and then played with the "most possible" valves down. Same pitch, different tubing lengths. It would seem that the "available nodes" are different in the two tubing sets, and that it would be possible for a listener to discern some difference. But not me.

MA