Where did the recording tubas go?

[mammoth2ba]

I've actually had band directors tell me that they preferred upright bells because the recording bells were too 'in their face'

Interesting. The two conductors I spent the most time watching the past several years both PREFERRED my recording bell over the upright (this after hearing the upright first).

One asked what became of them all? The other said he'd like to have a section of them. Directors aren't necessarily aware of the latest tuba fashion, and my experience has been they don't all hear with their eyes either.

the seating arrangement of a band with one or more recording bell tubas becomes problematic......the recording bell must be placed on the extreme outside edge so as to not block the sightline

I won't argue with your experience, but can state in my situation I play the only recording bell tuba in a section of 5, with 2 upright tubas on either side of me. Only one tuba is marginally in front of tympani, as the rest of percussion is on the opposite back side of the stage from us.

[iiipopes]

Regarding the church, when I was younger and lived in another city I attended a church that had a very similar A-frame wooden ceiling. In spite of a slate floor and a stone wall up front, all that wood made just about everything, from voices to pipe organ, piano, brass and woodwind, really "woof," and lose definition. The only thing that ever had any real clarity in the room was a harpsichord. So I can see where an upright bell would just lose all definition in that room, and the front bell would retain the necessary definition to properly support any ensemble, from quintet, organ, to full congregational singing.

[mammoth2ba]

Regarding the church......all that wood made just about everything.....really "woof," and lose definition.

A semi-pro Dixieland group with a small Eb tuba plays regularly at the church pictured. The clarity of ensemble is quite impressive, with no tendency to "woof". Having heard many ensembles at regional locales, the one pictured offers one of the most favorable "acoustic situations" I'm aware of.

[Rick Denney]

Somebody needs to defend upright bells here.

The reason we don't want the tuba to be "in your face" like trumpets and trombones is because for most genres of music we have a different role. French horns have their unique sound in part because the bells point to the rear of the stage, which cleans off some of the edge and rattle of crisp articulation. With a tuba often providing the foundational tone of the brass, or even of the whole orchestra, the edge and sounds of crisp articulation (by which I do not mean the color provided by a full range of harmonic overtones) interferes with the sense of tonal presence. The tuba is a unique voice, but it is not usually a solo voice. The role of putting the point on the sound usually falls to the cylindrical brass. That's why diapason pipes on an organ are vertical, behind the other pipes, and often not even visible; but the high-compression trumpet pipes point right at the audience.

Those who defend forward bells for stage use say it's all in what the player can do. Of course. A good player can overcome anything. But it is extra work to shape the articulation to prevent any hint of the thump of an attack. Those who play them all the time make them work, but that doesn't mean it's the only way.

In many situations, that articulation sound is musically useful, and for those a bell pointed at the audience helps out. But even though I have forward bells on several instruments, I find I rarely use them except for novelty effect.

The King ad is ironic to me. I think they had long since discontinued production of rotary tubas, and it had been nearly 20 years since they had made a rotary monster (one of the great tubas of all time, in my view). It would have been more appropriate for Bell to be standing there with a 2341, but perhaps he would not then have been smiling.

Forward bells were really popular for a while for recording reasons, and conductors and players both got used to them. I suspect that now we are enjoying the omnipresent sound of big tubas with upright bells to a greater extent these days. Maybe I'm just not as good, but I know it's easier for me to get a cleaner blend with an upright bell than with a forward bell.

Rick "who played a King sousaphone all through school" Denney

[iiipopes]

Rick, I played a King souzy in high school, also. Nobody is dissing upright bells in this thread. Quite the contrary, my reading of this thread is simply to level the field back out that there are appropriate times and places for the recording bell: outdoors, no sound shell, and some others, after the time has now apparently, and thankfully, passed that they were looked down upon.

As I have also said, and a lot of the guys, we have both bells, and use them interchangeably.

Will they ever be used again in orchestra? Probably not, for the reasons you aptly point out, especially with the advances in hall and stage acoustic design and construction.

As far as the church acoustics, I'm glad to hear the church pictured above does have a good acoustic. Most churches, of all sizes, with wood ceiling A-frame construction tend to have a huge peak in the resonance in the neighborhood of @ 400 Hz that muddies everything. If this particular church has dealt with that, then I would like to know how so I can tell a couple of the other churches I have attended in past years how to fix it.

Rick, I must disagree on one point. Traditional pipe organ construction puts the pedal and lower manual diapasons in the facade so that the smaller pipes can be voiced stronger to carry and still blend, and so they don't "squeak" or lose their tone and presence as the scale ascends. The "flower boxes" and other case-less styles of pipe organ pipe arrangements that became popular in the 1970's tend to allow individual higher pipes to "squeak" and not necessarily blend, because everything has to be voiced differently, not just the largest pipes. The second reason they are put into a case is so as the ambient air changes temperature, it all changes relatively at the same pace, and not individual pipes from "hot spots" from being close to lights, ventilation ducts, etc.

Other than that, I am thankful I have both bells so I may play as the situation requires.

[Frank Ortega]

Just to give a slightly different point of view, I am a Middle School and High School band director as well as a professional tubist. Whenever my kids play the upright tubas that we have, Conn 5J, King 1140, Yamaha 105s, they cannot be heard. Whenever they play the Conn 20J or King Sousaphones, they can be heard. Two of my middle school kids prefer to play the sousaphones, and sound great on them. In the bands I teach, the rhythm is very solid when the bell front and sousas are played. In the right situation, these instruments can have a very positive effect on the ensemble they are played in.

My two cents,
Frank Ortega

[Uncle Buck]

. . . Whenever my kids play the upright tubas that we have, . . ., they cannot be heard. Whenever they play the Conn 20J or King Sousaphones, they can be heard.
My two cents,
Frank Ortega

And that, friends, is the bottom line issue for the tubas in the majority of middle and high school bands.

(And if you don't WANT your tubas to be heard, you have a different problem.)

[LoyalTubist]

I worked for that conductor in a symphony orchestra I won't name... the guy who didn't want the tuba to be heard, I mean.

[Wyvern]

And that, friends, is the bottom line issue for the tubas in the majority of middle and high school bands.

I think that can be an issue with a lot of wind bands of any age group - too top heavy (all those clarinets, flutes and trumpets) and not a present enough bass foundation. What Frank Ortega describes is a double issue - not just the use of upright bells, against recorded bells - but medium size tubas against BAT in the form of the 20J. Use of BATs in wind bands does seem to much improve their overall sound by providing that much needed foundation, while recording bell improves projection when desirable.

The other musicians in the bands I play much appreciate the foundation my Neptune provides and very much miss that 'presence' when there is only a medium size tuba (Besson Eb) providing bass.

[iiipopes]

I resemble that remark! In the small concert band ensemble I usually play in, I am most often the only tuba, so all dynamic levels are up at least one notch. And I wonder why I feel like I'm always running out of air, even on the easy stuff!