Against the "cloned instrument" idea

[Donn]

Never utter the phrases, "not so much", "yeah, right", "whatever", "you wish", or "that's what SHE said".

OK, so ... since enough has surely been said about Chinese tuba manufacture, may I ask where "not so much" came from? Been noticing this phrase for the last year or so, but the people who utter it won't identify the source when I ask. While we're at it, where did "I'm out of here" come from? (That would be ca. 1989 if I remember right.) I don't need to know these things, just curious.

I've worn the same pair of shoes daily for almost three years. They are made by SAS, which is the only company I know of that makes shoes entirely in the US. These shoes have been repaired three times now (including a new layer of rubber on the outer soles) and are still going strong.

Thanks for the tip! I see they have three widths up to size 15, which might work out for some of our larger footed colleagues. I'm able to pretty much clothe myself without Chinese stuff, too, main exception ordinarily being a couple pairs of motorcycle gloves. Some of the clothes I wear are ridiculously cheap if amortized. For example, I usually wear a fairly heavy wool shirt, and I bet you could wear one of those things 10 years - and I mean, 365 days X 10, so assuming you don't actually wear it in the summer and you actually have some other shirts, you'll have it for the rest of your life. My point is not that this is because it's made in the US (not sure they all were!), but rather that because it will last forever, the expense of first world labor to sew it together isn't that onerous. The problem with cheap stuff, is that it's expensive.

[averagejoe]

Somebody make a poll already.

[BavarianFanfare]

In regard to the cloned imported instruments from China, the Chinese can sell them to whoever they wish to, but I am not buying their stuff. I am not buying anything but an American, French, or German instrument, particularly when it comes to other instruments and tubas. Yes, they cost a lot of money! Recently, I purchased a new Armstrong (USA) 800B Sterling Silver Flute from the Woodwind & Brasswind. Before purchasing it, I considered buying a solid silver Gemeinhardt. You may ask why the Armstrong? Simple, the Armstrong is completely an American-made product, while the Gemeinhardt's headjoint is made in Elkhart, Indiana. The bodies of the Gemeinhardt are made in China, and finished stateside. The Armstrong also played a little better. Where it was made was a consideration when I made the purchase. I own two German tubas: a VMI 103 and a Miraphone 187. I have no regrets on those purchases or my other instruments. Finally, recently at TMEA, I tried a King (USA) 2341 and really liked it. Bloke had suggested in a post to a band director some time back that this was the only instrument he would recommend for middle school band for its durability, parts availability, sound, etc. I agree with Bloke. A King in my opinion, would be a far, far better buy than much of what is coming out of China, and less expensive than a European import. Please note, I do not work for Conn-Selmer, am not a Conn-Selmer dealer, and am just giving my personal opinion. Save your money and purchase something that will last! Remember the Yugo automobiles! They did not stay around long. They were cheap and disposable!

[cjk]

I don't mean to "brag" when saying this, but...

I haven't bought any "new" clothing in years. On the few occasions that I have purchased clothes, I have shopped at thrift stores (as buying second-hand does not support the existing clothing manufacturers, and does not require any new raw materials).

I've worn the same pair of shoes daily for almost three years. They are made by SAS, which is the only company I know of that makes shoes entirely in the US. These shoes have been repaired three times now (including a new layer of rubber on the outer soles) and are still going strong.

I try to avoid Wal-Mart and Target if at all possible. Generally, when I have to buy anything(besides food), I try to buy second-hand as much as possible (for the same reasons as above)--this includes music-related purchases (instruments, mouthpieces, etc.). Most importantly, I try to buy as little as possible in the first place.

I've had the same cell phone for six years, and the same computer for almost five. I don't plan to replace them until they are no longer operable. I haven't watched TV in almost six years, and I try to use electronics as little as possible (though, the internet is tricky--why am I typing this, after all? ). I have no iPod, portable CD player, PDA, etc.

In short, I do think about these things, and try to implement my thinking into my everyday life. There is always MUCH more that I could do...but there is a difference between taking continual "baby steps" and doing nothing at all (much less, not even considering these sort of things).

I am constantly aware of my shortcomings and failings. That is why these things bother me so much.

Humbly,

Sam F.

Sounds like college.

[Bob Kolada]

Some of these "I'm thriftier than you" arguments are getting mildly pathetic. I may wear clothes until they are somewhat worn (have not bought a new pair of pants in years), but not until they wear out.

[The Big Ben]

Maybe one of you thriftmeisters can answer a question for me:

I saw packages of recycled toilet paper in the grocery store this afternoon.

How do they make it sanitary?

Jeff "Two squares should be more than enough" Benedict

[GC]

This thread has had more serious thought and passionate discourse than any thread I've seen lately. I hope this is the start of a trend. And yes, I may buy one of the Besson 981 clones. Or not.

If someone would make a clone of the Conn Monster Eb with improved response and intonation, I'd buy one in an instant.

[k001k47]

Most top of the line electronics are manufactured in China.

Maybe when cheap BATs¹ start coming in from China everyone will be happy.






_______________________________________________________________________
¹BAT must have four button thingies and a lever rotating thingy and have a "world class sound"

[rocksanddirt]

snip
Also, to cjk and bloke, please to not attack me personally. If you disagree with me, GREAT! However, for a truly productive discussion, please confront my arguments, not my person. I will try to do the same.

Regards,

Sam F.

Yer gonna break the innernets with an attitude like that mr. /bad sarcasm.

[Bob Kolada]

If someone would make a clone of the Conn Monster Eb with improved response and intonation, I'd buy one in an instant.

I'd think the Kanstul Eb (though technically a York copy) would fit that bill. Too bad it runs over $7000.... I think I'll stick to my Giant or biding my time for another cheap 3400. It's not really the same thing but is kinda the same concept.
FWIW, my GIANT has great response and not-too-bad intonation.

[WakinAZ]

Didn't the venerable, and now "legitimate", Yamaha start out as a house of clones of Alex-inspired and Meinl-Weston tubas and Besson euphs? I realize TubeNet is not exactly a manufacturer sponsored Yammie fan club anyway. Serves 'em right to have Weril, et al copying their copies.
(If this has been addressed already, forgive me. I didn't feel like reading all 6 pages so far - lazy.) Quite the hot topic with 6 pages in one day.

Eric "who used to feel the same as the OP, but who realized his loyalties were not being rewarded" L.

[Wyvern]

I am not buying anything but an American, French, or German instrument, particularly when it comes to other instruments and tubas.

What have us British done to upset you???

who used to feel the same as the OP, but who realized his loyalties were not being rewarded

I used to feel the same until I had a Chinese girlfriend (now fiancé) meaning I have spent a lot of time in China and have seen how things are there more from an insiders viewpoint. The normal people are kind, honest and hard working - but there is an enormous wealth gap to the (greedy?) factory owners who are raking in the millions. In some ways it is like things must have been in the Europe 150 years ago.

I do think it off to apparently copy a newish model like the 1291, but that is really Miraphone's concern and not the tuba buyer who just wants a good playing instrument for an affordable price. If future competition means new models are not developed, then that would not be so awful - there are already so many wonderful models out there to choose from that for most of us it is practice we need to improve - not a new tuba. I tend to think if the Chinese started producing York CC and Holton 345 BBb BAT clones at an affordable price - a lot of people would have a change of heart?

I admire those people which are thrifty in their purchases, as that is what is needed from all of us for the good of the environment - the world has finite resources. I pity future generations who experience once plentiful minerals and fuels running out just because people today keep on wanting new and more of everything all the time

[funkhoss]

Sam,

I live about like you do, but it is my WALLET (and not my "conscience") that instructs me to do this.

bloke "who just bought a REALLY nice Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo (as nice as any of bloke's own cars) for my one-a-year car-eating daughter for $1350, and who wears work jeans and work shirts until the rot away in the washing machine"

Dear bloke,

You're right: the argument from economics is always much more convincing than the arguments from ethics. However, it's hard sometimes to get people to buy even that argument, as "thrift" is no longer valued in our society.

BTW, nice picture!

Sam "who is on the lookout for a good used Geo Metro--50+ mpg and CHEAP!"

[funkhoss]

Sounds like college.

What is this comment supposed to mean? Can you explain it to me?

If it is meant to imply that I am a naive "college student," that is not a very good characterization of where I am in life at the moment. I am married and I am a graduate student (not in music, though ).

Sam F.

[The Big Ben]

Sounds like college.

What is this comment supposed to mean? Can you explain it to me?

If it is meant to imply that I am a naive "college student," that is not a very good characterization of where I am in life at the moment. I am married and I am a graduate student (not in music, though ).

Some of us lived like that in college. We have more money now. Understand?

[funkhoss]

Thanks for the tip!

Donn,

I can't recommend SAS shoes enough. You can't buy them online, as they only allow their retailers to sell in-store, and they are fairly expensive, but they are extremely comfortable and very well made. Mine have proven to be very durable--it's not uncommon for me to walk anywhere from 1-4 miles in a day, and as I said above, I've worn them almost daily for several years.

Sam F.

[funkhoss]

Some of us lived like that in college. We have more money now. Understand?

I have more money than I did in college. I still live "that way" (if not more thriftily than I did then). Understand?

Just because one can, doesn't mean one should...

Sam

[pgym]

who used to feel the same as the OP, but who realized his loyalties were not being rewarded

I used to feel the same until I had a Chinese girlfriend (now fiancé) meaning I have spent a lot of time in China and have seen how things are there more from an insiders viewpoint. The normal people are kind, honest and hard working - but there is an enormous wealth gap to the (greedy?) factory owners who are raking in the millions. In some ways it is like things must have been in the Europe 150 years ago.

Of the Carnegies, Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, DuPonts, Fords, Astors, Fricks, Morgans, Hersheys, and their fellow robber barons of a century (or less) ago in the US, or, more recently, the Gates, Ballmers, Jobs, Dells, Groves, Bassillis, etc. of this generation.

I do think it off to apparently copy a newish model like the 1291, but that is really Miraphone's concern and not the tuba buyer who just wants a good playing instrument for an affordable price.

I find it interesting that so many posters are complaining about "the Chinese" copying this or that when, as anyone who's bothered to spend 5 minutes researching the Chinese export manufacturing business would realize that the products being "copied" by "the Chinese" are being built to order from specs supplied by their US- and European-based customers. So why isn't anyone complaining about the Steve Dillons, Dave Fedderleys, Vince Simonettis, Steve Shires, Shawn Pagingtons, et al. who contract with "the Chinese" to make the copies in the first place?

[bort]

I do think it off to apparently copy a newish model like the 1291, but that is really Miraphone's concern and not the tuba buyer who just wants a good playing instrument for an affordable price. If future competition means new models are not developed, then that would not be so awful - there are already so many wonderful models out there to choose from that for most of us it is practice we need to improve - not a new tuba. I tend to think if the Chinese started producing York CC and Holton 345 BBb BAT clones at an affordable price - a lot of people would have a change of heart?

Maybe I should just go ahead and send in that job application to Miraphone, then.

Sorry, but I don't really buy the argument that new models aren't really necessary. There is surely a point where progress will "level off," but I don't think we're really there yet. There are lots of wonderful models, and lots of wonderful tuba players right now. But who knows what our concept of "great tuba sound" would be in 100 years. We all talk about German and American sound concepts. Who says there couldn't be a third "Asian sound"? And a rush to build tubas to suit that? There is always somewhere to go, and we'll never get there if we don't push ahead.

And please, don't get me wrong, I'm trying to be very careful to NOT single out any culture here, including the Chinese. Among other reasons, China is a gigantic country, with over a billion (with a "b" people). Many of those people don't even live in the heavy industry cities. How (or why) on Earth could I draw a generalization about that many people??

Would be very curious to hear from any German TubeNetters out there about how the cloned instruments are being received over there? Low cost alternatives? Or serious threats?

[pgym]

Pgym, "who thinks it's more than a little ironic that someone would complain about the legality of cloning a non-patented item but doesn't have a problem engaging in what is, at the very least, a technical violation of an existing copyright.[/url]"

Your signature claims you are a lawyer. You should know that patent law and copyright law are apples and oranges. Your non-sequitor says more about you than it does about someone who asked for help in a (clearly fair use) pinch, and then DARED to express an opinion on a separate topic.

Sorry, Uncle Buck, but, in case you hadn't noticed, copyright law and patent law are BOTH subsets of Intellectual Property Law, and, as such, are therefore more akin to Winesap and Gala apples than apples and oranges.

Furthermore, please cite the provision of copyright law that permits copying a work in its entirety, for commercial purposes as permissible under the doctrine of fair use. Also, please cite the provision in copyright law that permits such copies to be made "in a pinch."

While an individual publisher or copyright holder may grant a purchaser permission to copy a work under a narrowly delimited set of circumstances, unless the rights holder explicitly grants that permission, copying of the work in its entirety without obtaining permission to do so from the rights holder constitutes a breach of copyright law.

In light of that, I suggest that your attempt to justify what is unambiguosuly a technical, even if trivial, violation of copyright law as "fair use" says more about your ignorance of the doctrine of fair use than it does the validity of pointing out the ethical and intellectual disconnect between pointing the finger at "them" for purportedly violating intellectual property law while engaging in what is unambiguously a technical violation of the behavior being condemned in others.