Miraphone 1291 and M & M Clone Comparison

[Dan Schultz]

I received the M & M 1291 clone this afternoon. I haven't had much of a chance to play on it yet but took a little time to create a page on my website where I can note observations as needed. So far, all I've done is post a few pictures. Seeing these two horns side-by-side sort of makes a persons eyes water! The valves and slides on the clone all feel good. No sign of that 'gritty' feeling I've encountered with some of imports.

If anyone is in Southern Indiana and wants to toot on both of these horns.... just give me a shout.

Check my web pages for updates.

[Mike Finn]

Thanks for taking the time to do this, Dan. I am very interested in your findings, after reading glowing reviews of some of the other models from this new crop of imports.

(Although you know there's one tuba I'm even more interested in... )

[bisontuba]

Great pics Dan--give us an update when you can.
mark

[TubaTodd]

umm....WOW! Holy duplication Batman. Of course the proof is in the playing. I'll be curious to hear more on that topic in the future. Thanks a bunch for the side-by-side.

[Dan Schultz]

I've only played ONE 191 copy (rotary), but I found that (Chinese) tuba (several years ago) to be a good instrument.

I had an Allora 191 a couple of years ago. It is a copy of the Miraphone 191. It was a good horn except it played a bit on the sharp side. Roger Lewis fixed me up with a longer tuning slide for a REAL Miraphone 191 and it fit the Allora with only very minor modification. It was a good horn.

More on the 1291 (M & M) clone... I tooted on it for a while this afternoon and took it to my community band rehearsal tonight. The horn performs great! I plan to alternate between the clone at the REAL Mirafone over the next couple of weeks. Playing the horn, I can FEEL the difference but haven't been able to detect any intonation problems. When I say I can 'FEEL' the difference, I mean the valves aren't quite as smooth at the Miraphone. The slides are typical of Asian horns. The fit and finish of the slide tubes is adequate but not as fine as the Miraphone. I'm going to do a bit of work to make the slides as smooth as I like them. Currently, the #2 slide is stuck and the rest are difficult to pull.

There is a slight flattening of the 3rd circuit where it exits the valve casing and the lower loop of the 1st valve wrap is not parallel and the lower crook is 'over-bent' sort of like a hairpin. Both situations are not 'show-stopper' but look like a little more care needs to be taken during assembly. Apparently the parts didn't fit perfectly and things were forced to make them work. This is the kind of think I've learned to expect from the Asian horn. It's mostly a matter of physical details that will probably improve as the horn builders mature. I'll try to get some pictures of these things on my web page in a day or so.

The valve guides are not copies of the German ones. Jin Bao has chosen to use the Yamaha style plastic valve guide. The didn't get it quite right, though. The metal insert in the guide is as wide as the plastic and the metal 'scratches' the guide slot on the #1 piston. The 'scratchyness' is mainly due to one side of the guide slot not being finished very well. With conventional solid metal guides this might not have even been a problem but the thin metals ones imbedded in the plastic tend to 'grate' along the slot. I've seen poorly finished guide slots on very expensive horns so this doesn't strike me as a problem, either.

At this point... I have to say that the M & M 1291 'clone' represents and excellent value.

And 'no'.... no-one has paid me to say nice things about these horn... not even a T-shirt was involved!

[bisontuba]

Dan-
Congrats on your new baby! Very glad she is a player!! I too noticed the 'Yamaha' type piston guides on my 981 Besson clone. Excellent observations re. your clone.
BTW, I saw the work you did on T.J's horn--super job!
Enjoy your new horn!
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@Juno.com" target="_blank

[Bob Kolada]

Also, does anyone know if Jin Bao has put any thought into duplicating the front action Besson 983 EEb?

Nuts to that! If they bring out a nice Willson 3400 clone, I will be spitting up food from last week.

The upcoming Jupiter Eb is basically modified copy of a 983. My understanding is that they will be changing the valve angle (the Jupiter rep at Midwest told me Pat Sheridan never liked that but Besson wouldn't change it) and a few other things.

[bisontuba]

HI-
The CC 1291 clone will be out hopefully before ITEC.
mark

[MartyNeilan]

Does anyone know when the 1291 CC clone will hit the market? Also, does anyone know if Jin Bao has put any thought into duplicating the front action Besson 983 EEb?

Heck with that - I want a copy of the CSO York (#1, none of that #2 junk) for $995 with a beryllium bell and a carbon fiber case!

[k001k47]

HI-
The CC 1291 clone will be out hopefully before ITEC.
mark

sign me up

KoladaNuts to that! If they bring out a nice Willson 3400 clone, I will be spitting up food from last week.

I can't tell if that's a bad or good thing.

[Dan Schultz]

Website updated on 3/11/2010. More pictures.

[bort]

Thanks for the update, Dan!

Are the valve caps on the clone smaller? Or just look different? Also, curious about the "innerds" of the valves... what did they use for corks/neoprene? How was the valve alignment from the factory? Did they vent the valves?

[bisontuba]

Dan-
Great new pics with details. Excellent observations!!
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@Juno.com" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

Thanks for the update, Dan!

Are the valve caps on the clone smaller? Or just look different? Also, curious about the "innerds" of the valves... what did they use for corks/neoprene? How was the valve alignment from the factory? Did they vent the valves?

Valve alignment was one of the first things I checked. I used a borescope and took a took at virtually every port. The alignment both vertical and radial was very good with no changes necessary. The felts were just that... old-fashioned felt. The ones in my Miraphone are synthetic but since the horn was used, I don't know if they are original or not.

The valves appear to be unplated stainless shells with brass cross-ports. Everything about the valves appears quite adequate except for the key. Instead of a key in the side of the piston as is with the German horn.... Jin Bao chose to incorporate a plastic/metal guide similar to the Yamaha guide that fits on top of the piston and is held in place by a washer and valve stem. They may as well have left the plastic off the guide as the metal insert is the same width and produces a 'rasping' noise when it comes in contact with the key slot. I may address this by modifying Yamaha guides. this is just another one of those 'little things' that sets the Chinese horn apart from the REAL German engineering.

None of the valves on the clone are vented. All of the pistons on the Miraphone are vented, but not the rotor.

[Dan Schultz]

New comparison update on website...
http://thevillagetinker.com/miraphone_1 ... _clone.htm

Good playin' horn. Small problems with some workmanship issues but still worth the bucks!

[bisontuba]

Dan-
Great pics, observations, and fixes. Very impressed with your images and your 'alterations.'
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

[TubaTodd]

I'm not saying I'd buy one of these for myself....BUT....this whole test and analysis begs some serious questions that you are in a unique position to answer.
==============
1. Are these horns a good value?
2a. As discussed in other Chinese tuba threads, would there be a market for skilled repairmen to provide TLC services (slide/valve alignments/lapping, valve guide mods, tweaks, etc) to make a "Mira-nese" 1291 play more like a Miraphone?
(There was a shop that did this with OLP guitars adding Floyd Rose tremolo's, after market pickups (EMG, DiMarzio,etc) performed neck alignments and did detailed fret work.)
2b. If someone purchased a Mira-nese 1291 would you be willing to perform these types of tweaks?
2c.Would it be worth your time?
2d. Would it be any different than someone bringing you a King, Conn or other mass market horn to you for some aftermarket assembly TLC?
3. If a part on a Mira-nese 1291 were to become damaged a) could you get replacement original parts and b) could you use an actual Miraphone part?

[Dan Schultz]

I'm not saying I'd buy one of these for myself....BUT....this whole test and analysis begs some serious questions that you are in a unique position to answer.
==============
Assuming you are addressing me
1. Are these horns a good value?
The one I have here is... even with the work it took to correct minor workmanship issues.

2a. As discussed in other Chinese tuba threads, would there be a market for skilled repairmen to provide TLC services (slide/valve alignments/lapping, valve guide mods, tweaks, etc) to make a "Mira-nese" 1291 play more like a Miraphone?
(There was a shop that did this with OLP guitars adding Floyd Rose tremolo's, after market pickups (EMG, DiMarzio,etc) performed neck alignments and did detailed fret work.)

Yes. That being said... repairmen who refuse to work on the instruments on the current market are going to lose. These instruments are a fact and aren't going to go away. They will get better. If the manufacturers pay attention to feedback... I'm sure some of the brands will rise to become direct competition for the 'big guys'.

2b. If someone purchased a Mira-nese 1291 would you be willing to perform these types of tweaks?
Certainly. But... the labor rate is the same as any other horn and the wait time for parts may be extended due to logistics and language barriers.

2c.Would it be worth your time?
Yes. My labor rate is the same without regard to what I'm working on. The REAL question is do you feel it would be worth your money.

2d. Would it be any different than someone bringing you a King, Conn or other mass market horn to you for some aftermarket assembly TLC?
No.

3. If a part on a Mira-nese 1291 were to become damaged a) could you get replacement original parts and b) could you use an actual Miraphone part?

In some cases... REAL Miraphone parts such as crooks and some hardware would probably be used or at least adaptable. Precision parts like rotor parts probably would not interchange. Although the Asian horns are more-or-less 'clones' of the real thing... they aren't copied with that great of precision. A thousanth of an inch is A LOT when it comes to how parts fit together. At this point, I don't think simply replacing a rotor without changing the housing would be a good option. The quality control from one part to the next doesn't seem to be there, yet. I would think changing a complete rotor assembly would not be a problem.

Anyone who purchases a $3,000 copy of a $15,000 horn should be prepared for the fact that there WILL be some compromises. I would say in most cases that problems can be worked out but it might cost the owner a few bucks.

I have maybe ten hours involved with getting this horn to the point where it suits me. It wasn't just a matter of comparing it to the REAL Miraphone. I expect the same performance out of any of my horns. I won't tolerate slides that don't move easily, parts that rattle, valves that are 'scratchy', or just plain bad intonation. Most anything can be fixed. It's only a matter of time and/or money. Is this horn worth $500-600 more than I paid for it to make it the way I like it? You bet! It plays well and it would suit my playing style and ability.... But, It's still not a REAL Miraphone 1291. Any more questions?

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I think Dan is 100% correct--bottom line is that these new Chinese clone horns DO play--and as far as some minor work needing to be done, haven't we seen in the Tubenet thread about people spending $10,000+ or $22,500+ and having valve/slide problems with German horns? Now if I spent THAT kind of money and had valve problems/slide problems, I would be upset! If I needed some minor work/tweaking on a Chinese clone horn that DOES play well, big deal--I'd have it done ASAP.
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

PS Speaking of 'clones,' let's see-the YamaYork "clone" is I think around $35,000 --yipes!!

[TubaTodd]

Dan,

Thanks for answering all of my questions. The reason I asked was that say someone played tested and purchased a Mira-nese 1291 that they liked for the going rate (~$3500 ??). It would still be a bargain for them to spend another $1000 on "repairman TLC." They would end up with a nice horn that has been fine tuned for $4500. I know it would not be a Miraphone (those OLP guitars I mentioned still weren't the real thing), but it sounds like a tremendous value.

Business Idea:

I suppose you could purchase a batch of these horns. Have them stenciled as "Tinker-phones." Perform the needed TLC so they meet your standards and sell them as "already tinkered with." (Pardon the pun)