Professional 4/4 BBb?

[kontrabass]

Mulling over some equipment changes since I started playing a lot of BBb sousaphone.

I'd like to have a versatile, professional quality 4/4 BBb as my other axe, which I would use mostly for jazz and commercial playing but still the occasional classical gig. 4 valves if not 5, and piston only. Any model recommendations?

I know there are better options in CC, but I'm playing a lot of sousaphone and want my fingering patterns to tranfser.

[UTSAtuba]

I know there are better options in CC.

Not always true. Unfortunately, I haven't played too many 4/4 BBb piston horns. But, some good recommendations would be the Miraphone 1291 BBb (possibly the Chinese copy...talk to TubaTinker on that one) and the F. Schmidt 3301 (something I've been looking at myself). I'm sure I've left out plenty. It's just to get you started.

"fwiw" Joseph

[tubatom91]

The new Nirchl 4/4 BBb sounds right up your alley, it's a damn fine playing horn, I played a lacquer one at Midwest Clinic and really enjoyed it. Find one and try it out, they are very nice and quite affordable.

[iiipopes]

186

Seriously. Still. The workhorse. You did say 4/4. You did say professional.

The other alternative with a slightly larger bugle and throat, but same diameter bore and bell rim (in current manufacture) is the Miraphone 187. A significant number of people on this board prefer it. I would call it a 4/4+.

There are a significant number of quality BBb tubas out there, but you did say "Professional 4/4." The others are either not quite there as far as my opinion would put the term "professional" on, or are of a larger size, from 5/4- to 6/4+.

[kontrabass]

Every 186 BBb I've found online has rotary valves. If piston ones are available I'd be interested.
The 1291 is a big horn, no? I've heard it listed as 5/4, but never played one. I don't want to go too big.
From what I googled, I'm fascinated by the NIrschl BBbs. Are they available for sale, and if so, who's got em?

[averagejoe]

Get the "Meinl Weston 2011FA HoJo." It sounds exactly like what you are looking for. 186's and their clones are fine, we've all played them, but I think you will like the hojo much better for your jazz stuff.

[tubatom91]

Gemstone Music has the Nirschl's for sale currently

[imperialbari]

viewtopic.php?p=321097#p321097

[Dan Schultz]

You didn't mention whether you are seeking new or used... or top-action or front-action. Although I think the 1291 BBb tubas are very good horns... I don't think they (or the clones) can qualify as a 4/4 tuba.

The King 1241/2341 are not considered to be professional-quality tubas in some circles. However... even an older model with a detachable bell could easily fill the bill for you. They are fairly plentiful and if you could locate one with both the recording and upright bells.... they are extremely versatile.

[kontrabass]

Front action definitely. And new if the price is reasonable. Doesn't look like what I'm after is going to be found on the used market anyway.

I am within a day's drive of Elkhart too so I may wish to take a trip down there. The HoJo model is a possibility too.

[tubajazzo]

The MW HoJo 2011FA is a very nice horn, I just got one. You should try it. It sounds bigger than most people would think, if you put a big mouthpiece on it. With smaller mouthpiece it is a solo horn. Very responsive.

Just a happy new owner....
Gerd

[iiipopes]

If you want front action valves, then you won't be getting a 186.

Yes, the new M-W Johnson models are designed for solo jazz, but they do have smaller bores and bells, more like a 7/8 tuba than a 4/4 tuba. That's why I did not list them at first.

For front valves, and your intended usage, one could also consider a King 1241.

[T. J. Ricer]

Just wanted to jump in and say that I would second the King 2341 or the new Gemstone W. Nirschl BBb. Both are excellent horns, with the Nirschl being quite a bit larger. I would be very glad to own either one.

Don Harry bought a W. Nirschl BBb recently and has been putting it to good use in the Buffalo Philharmonic. . . PLENTY of sound coming out of that thing!

good luck!
--T. J.

[J.c. Sherman]

If I'm not mixed up too bad with their confusing and confounding numbering system, I tried what I think is the PT-2P or the VMI 3301 and thought it was quite delightful. I was surprised - I'm not exactly prone to liking that brand.

J.c.

[Rick Denney]

If you can find one, a German-made Nirschl uses the same outer branches as a B&M Symphonic model 5500, and is a great 4/4 instrument. It will have construction quality up to most anyone's standard of professionalism. Used, they will cost as much as a new King 2341.

And I'd rather have the King for many things, if it's a good one.

The B&M Symphonic 5500 of later years was built in a more workaday finish level but is an excellent tuba.

The current Nirschl is made by Weril in Brazil. It's quite nice, but the finish isn't up to the standards of the German-made instruments. Neither is the price.

And, yes, it's a PT-2P that is the B&S designation for the VMI 3301. Those are also excellent instruments in the 4/4 size.

These are all good choices, depending on which one trips your trigger.

Rick "who does not confuse fit and finish with sound and playability" Denney

[Tubacube]

You may also want to consider a Kanstul 33-S4 (4 valve)
or a 33-S (5 valve) here is a pix:

[caseys186]

Some of those older Conns and Kings (with detachable /interchangeable bells) sound like they would fit your bill,as well as present a old horn "jazz" kind of vibe. All that being said, one more vote for "186" . Definetly try out a few horns before you settle. For jazz, a slightly smaller bore might be in order.
Hope this helps.

[rocksanddirt]

I have a question, why the insistance on piston valves?

the throw on a 186's paddles is very similar to the throw on a piston valve. Well maintained, they are just as 'quick' and 'quiet'.

[kontrabass]

Tried both, and pistons just feel better for playing rhythmic, groove based music. You can adjust the angle of your hand and really slam them down. Plus it's easier to do half valving for glisses, rips, etc.

[kontrabass]

By the way, since so many keep bringing up the 186, I'll ask it again: does a 186 4/4 BBb with front action piston valves actually exist? I haven't been able to find one online so far.