Penetrating oils compared

[Dean E]

This article on penetrating oils is circulating on the viral circuit and sounds believable to me, an old machinist, tool and die maker, and machine repairman.

The info might be of value in picking a penetrating oil for loosening stuck brass slides and valve caps--where no microscopic crystals have formed as part of the corrosion process. Crystalline crud expands and occupies the designed-in clearance--the same as sand. Crystalline crud probably is not soluble in solvents and lubricants.

Your mileage may vary because of differences (in steel, cast iron, and brass) regarding how corrosion occurs.

=================================

Machinist's Workshop Magazine tested penetrants for break
out torque on rusted nuts. Significant results! They arranged a subjective
test of all the popular penetrants with the control being the torque
required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

Type of penetrating oil ..... Average load

None ................................ 516 pounds

WD-40 ............................ 238 pounds

PB Blaster .......................214 pounds

Liquid Wrench .............. 127 pounds

Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds

ATF-Acetone mix......... 53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic
transmission fluid and acetone.

Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this
one particular test. A local machinist group mixed up a batch and all now
use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as
good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.

[tubatom91]

My grandfather used a mixture of Iodine and transmission fluid to pull the old sleeves out of a 1928 sleeve valve engine. The engine was completely seized until a couple applications later, they dropped right out of the block with no damage (the sleeves can be delicate and crack or break during forced removal). He told me the drug store looked at him funny when he needed more than a little eye dropper full of Iodine.

[Rick Denney]

I have used Kroil extensively and buy the aerosol version (Aero-Kroil) by the case directly from Kano Labs.

I'm sure ATF mixed with acetone will work very well. I'm also sure it will eat some plastics and ruin some paint finishes. Kroil won't do that.

Rick "WD-40: Just say no" Denney

[Bowerybum]

Loctite Freeze and Release, available thru your local Applied Industrial Technologies
service center. Our automotive, oem, machine tool buiders, etc. customers love it.

http://loctitefreezeandrelease.com/" target="_blank

[Rev Rob]

When I was in Bath, Maine, the Bath Maritime Museum was restoring an old tug boat that had a triple expansion steam engine. The engine was thoroughly seized up. They used oil of wintergreen to loosen it up. The only caveat: oil of wintergreen is poisonous. Iodine and ATF, as well as acetone and ATF are probably much easier to attain than oil of wintergreen, and are probably a little less hazardous to one's health.

[djwesp]

WD-40 is a complete waste of money.

Only thing I have ever used it for is cleaning countertops. The tin liquid containers are great for this.

[Dean E]

WD-40 is a complete waste of money.

Only thing I have ever used it for is cleaning countertops. The tin liquid containers are great for this.

WD-40 usually works for minor problems, and it is available almost everywhere. I figure that heavily rusted bolts and nuts will break off anyway, which is OK in most situations, so I can usually live with WD-40's limitations. I also use it to help protect metal tools that I don't intend to use soon from moisture.

Evidently the formula varies according to which part of the globe WD-40 is marketed in. Wikipedia says:

"WD-40's formula is a trade secret. The product is not patented in order to avoid completely disclosing its ingredients.[2] WD-40's main ingredients, according to U.S. Material Safety Data Sheet information, are:

* 50%: Stoddard solvent (i.e., mineral spirits -- primarily hexane, somewhat similar to kerosene)
* 25%: Liquefied petroleum gas (presumably as a propellant; carbon dioxide is now used instead to reduce WD-40's considerable flammability)
* 15+%: Mineral oil (light lubricating oil)
* 10-%: Inert ingredients

The German version of the mandatory EU safety sheet lists the following safety-relevant ingredients:

* 60-80%: Heavy Naphtha (petroleum product), hydrogen treated
* 1-5%: Carbon dioxide"

[bearphonium]

Buying that much iodine in Oregon will get a visit from the gendarmes. Big ingredient in meth production.

[djwesp]

WD-40 is a complete waste of money.

I figure that heavily rusted bolts and nuts will break off anyway, which is OK in most situations, so I can usually live with WD-40's limitations.

I have been replacing hub assemblies on Hyundai Tiburon's lately. (i did this myself and have been teaching other tib owners in my car club how to do it)

They have 1 phillips head assembly screw that goes from the rotor to the hub assembly.

I do believe, there is no "penetrating oil" in the world that would help take these puppies out. They are rusted on, the road salts/chemicals create an almost concrete film on top of the rust, and the rapid heat change on these puppies makes it seem stronger than a weld.

I tried penetrating oils, freezing, heating it up with a torch, heating the bolt with a torch and then freezing the outer ring of the rotor, literally nothing can get these guys out. The phillips head is another issue all together, as it strips so easily. Even if you cut a long groove in it to use a #3 flathead on it, it will strip that. The "screw removers" and "bolt removers" from hardware stores don't work either, they just strip out of the screw interior.

After the first 4, I don't even try anymore. I go straight for the dremel. I can actually take the ball grinding bit on the dremel and drill all the way thru the entire part that sits in the rotor. Then I put some liquid nitrogen in the dremel hole, pound a screwdriver in it and twist, it shattters into a million pieces and a polishing tool cleans up the inside threads of the rotor.

I could replace the rotors with the hub assemblies, but the rear rotors on these things can last a lifetime!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Pssst...Wes...try one of these:

WD-40 is great when used for what it was designed for. Water displacement. It dries up water.

[djwesp]

Thanks Todd. What is it exactly and how does it work?

The "bolt/screw" removal kits are basically just screwdriver bits with weird teeth that dig into the screw.

[Dan Schultz]

Thanks Todd. What is it exactly and how does it work?....

Sorry.... I'm not Todd but I can tell you for certain if you EVER work on 60's and 70's Japanese motorcycles... you HAVE to own one of these gadgets. It's an impact screwdriver. You select the direction you want the bit to turn.... seat the bit in the screw head.... and then whack the gadget with a hammer.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Dan is, as usual, right on the money. The impact driver has the advantage of delivering a greater amount of torque (twisting force) than a regular screwdriver ALL AT ONCE as you hit it with the hammer. Most of the time, this "starts" the screw out without stripping the head.

[djwesp]

I'm still a bit skeptical it will work, but at $7 (harbor freight) what does it hurt to try!

We'll find out wednesday. I'll check back in.

If a $7 tool fixes all that labor, I will feel idiotic, but will be greatly indebted to Tubenetters!

[djwesp]

Well, on both tries if failed. Just a poorly designed place to put a phillips head screw.


Good news is I got an awesome, inexpensive tool out of it. I can find about 100 ways to use this thing, whether or not it worked for this intended use.

[Rick F]

Thanks Todd. What is it exactly and how does it work?....

Sorry.... I'm not Todd but I can tell you for certain if you EVER work on 60's and 70's Japanese motorcycles... you HAVE to own one of these gadgets. It's an impact screwdriver. You select the direction you want the bit to turn.... seat the bit in the screw head.... and then whack the gadget with a hammer.

So true! I still have my impact driver exactly as pictured. Got rid of my '69 Honda CL-350 nearly 40 years ago, but still have the impact driver. Only need it now once in a blue moon - but when you need it it's the only thing that will work. It's THE ONLY THING that would break loose the screws on Honda side plates.

[steve_decker]

I have been replacing hub assemblies on Hyundai Tiburon's lately. (i did this myself and have been teaching other tib owners in my car club how to do it)

They have 1 phillips head assembly screw that goes from the rotor to the hub assembly.

I do believe, there is no "penetrating oil" in the world that would help take these puppies out. They are rusted on, the road salts/chemicals create an almost concrete film on top of the rust, and the rapid heat change on these puppies makes it seem stronger than a weld.

I tried penetrating oils, freezing, heating it up with a torch, heating the bolt with a torch and then freezing the outer ring of the rotor, literally nothing can get these guys out. The phillips head is another issue all together, as it strips so easily. Even if you cut a long groove in it to use a #3 flathead on it, it will strip that. The "screw removers" and "bolt removers" from hardware stores don't work either, they just strip out of the screw interior.

After the first 4, I don't even try anymore. I go straight for the dremel. I can actually take the ball grinding bit on the dremel and drill all the way thru the entire part that sits in the rotor. Then I put some liquid nitrogen in the dremel hole, pound a screwdriver in it and twist, it shattters into a million pieces and a polishing tool cleans up the inside threads of the rotor.

I could replace the rotors with the hub assemblies, but the rear rotors on these things can last a lifetime!

Heating the bolt and freezing the outer ring will make the problem worse. Heat around the bolt only may help. Heat is used to expand the threaded portion of the fastener. If you heat the bolt, you'll expand the bolt into the threads.

For a number of years, Ford Escort/Mercury Tracer had a similar set-up. First attempt was the impact driver Todd suggested. If needed, the second step was a Phillips head socket on a 3/8" pneumatic impact gun. If that didn't get it, time to bust out the grinder and get rid of that stupid little sucker. Enough of these required grinding that most of us mechanics had a fair supply of replacement screws in our toolbox.

[djwesp]

Ha, thanks for calling me out on that steve.

Unfortunately, while I said it in reverse, I did it the way you stated.

Heat expands, cold contracts... or so the adage goes.

[Rick Denney]

...If needed, the second step was a Phillips head socket on a 3/8" pneumatic impact gun.

The tool manufacturers now all make a cordless impact driver, which uses a Phillips bit (same bit as a screw shooter) and a cordless impact wrench. 1000 inch-pounds is the typical rating. You can push the tool into the screw with all your weight behind it, and then just lightly pull the trigger to apply a slow series of impacts. I find it every bit as effective as an impact driver, but not limited to just getting the screw started. With sufficient applied weight, I have found that the bit will shatter before it strips the screw, though that depends on the strength of the screw, of course. Usually what strips Phillips screws are a driver with a worn tip or less than perfect alignment of the tool. I have used the heck out of cordless impact wrenches in my GMC Motorhome rebuilding project.



When you replace them, apply liberal amounts of antisieze, of course.

Corrosion is a special problem, because it often forms expanding crystals that cannot be dissolved with any oil. But the corrosion can often be shattered by using an impact driver. Sometimes, though, the corrosion is stronger than the threads.

Rick "who hates stripped Phillips screws" Denney

[BlueGrassBrass]

WD-40 is a complete waste of money.

Could not agree more.