For decades, the emperors have had no clothes.

[kontrabass]

I know a lot of musicians, some very successful, some not. I've known some very good ones, successful, professional ones that are regular users. And I've known a lot who are regular users who are not really going anywhere in their careers. I've also known some people with incurable chronic pain who couldn't live without medicinal marijuana.

I suspect that pot is an easy enabler if you wish to avoid getting your life in order. But there seem to be some people that can use it as a recreational drug, for real, without suffering terrible consequences.

By the way, bloke, I missed this thread the first time around so I wasn't able to defend the art form of hip hop after your first post. Let me just say that your critique of "low rhyme" and lack of harmonic complexity might be a valid complaint for the mainstream commercial garbage on top 40 radio, but those examples don't speak for the entire genre; in the hands of a real artist, it's real music, and like it or not, the most influential music of modern time - as important to this generation as rock and roll was to boomers.

[SRanney]

Bach? Lame. Beethoven? Crap. Brahms? Pure tripe.*

As a former addict of several illicit illegal (and some legal) substances, I have first hand experience with the maelstrom that can be a life cannabanoids, LSD, cocaine, and copious amounts of alcohol. Others in my (previous) close circle of friends have not had the same issues I've had. (Admittedly, they also did not consume LSD and cocaine at the same levels I had done.) Bloke's characterization of "all" pot users is not accurate. In particular, many of my previously close circle of friends (e.g., potheads) are well-off financially, have (and have had) good, well paying, respected jobs in the IT and real estate industries for many, many years, and many are quite happily married. Indeed, they have been consumers of marijuana for at least 10+ years. To suggest that use of pot leads directly to financial problems may be the end result in some, but is not the end result in all.

I'm not sure how legalizing marijuana would impact me. Would I use it again? No, because to me, it's poison, a revelation I had long before I had ever heard of TubeNet. However, the legalization of marijuana would likely NOT affect any of my personal rights and freedoms guaranteed me by the constitution. How would it affect your rights and freedoms, bloke? In what field of medicine do you specialize that you're knowledge of the medicinal uses of marijuana surpasses those of many degreed physicians?

Just because I really like this comic:


_____________
*Because someone will certainly think this is my actual opinion rather than a facetious remark, I've chosen to asterisk the opening statement of this post with this: This is facetiousness.

[Rick Denney]

The tricky bit for someone considering marijuana is knowing whether they are the type of person who will be able to take or leave it, or the type who will be captured by it. Problem is, the test required to make that determination is destructive. And, too often, the decision to conduct such tests are being made by young'uns without the maturity to assess the risks and consequences, or even the ability to evaluate the results of the test. And the substance being tested further diminishes the ability to evaluate those results. The same is true for alcohol, of course, which is why alcohol use for minors is just about as illegal as pot use.

If marijuana has medical uses, then let a drug company refine it, run it through FDA testing, and offer it as a prescription drug. I'm quite sure there are far more dangerous prescription drugs than marijuana. For example, my wife's mother was prescribed morphine (an opiate) for cancer pain, but under a doctor's care. The fact that proponents of medical marijuana refuse to consider such an approach suggests to me that claiming the medicinal value is a tactic for access by those who don't have a medical need. Stated another way, those who can really demonstrate a medical need must be vastly outnumbered by those who just want legal access.

And I'm always amazed to find that pot users are so concerned about individual liberty when it comes to pot use, but lose that conviction when it comes to the myriad of other programs where governments take away liberty in the interest of presumed safety, security, or public health. Hypocrisy knows no doctrinal boundaries.

I know people who use dangerous substances without too many consequences, but I also believe they would live better without them. The significant majority of people I know who use them, however, do so destructively. Those who suffer negative consequences of pot use are a higher percentage in my experience than those who suffer negative consequences from alcohol use, but that may just be my sample.

I don't have a prescription as to whether it should or should not be legal. But I would really like to see those who debate it to be a little more honest about the risks and consequences.

Rick "knowing that any subject, once politicized, becomes immune to truth" Denney

[kegmcnabb]

Just because I really like this comic:

Funniest, most accurate, most apropos thing I have seen for weeks on TubeNet.

[tubafatness]

[Tuba Guy]

[sloan]

General: "90% of everything is crap"

Special: "99% of this thread is crap"

[Bob Kolada]

There's some funny pictures on this page!


Bob"save image as"Kolada

[TUBAD83]

Alcohol and cigarettes kill more people then pot, coke, heroin, speed, acid, lsd, crystal meth COMBINED. They both should be totally banned for good, right??

Lets stop demonizing pot and have an honest informed intelligent debate about decriminalization...now is the time.

JJ

[Todd S. Malicoate]

At the risk of repeating myself over a year later...

I propose we let bygones be bygones, since neither side has a chance in Hades of changing the other side's opinion.

Good thing none of us are in charge of making the laws.

[k001k47]

No.

[KevinMadden]

First, a chime on the music discussion.
Most modern music is crap from an emotional perspective. If you expect your music to convey and evoke deep emotional reactions (feelings of love, despair, rage, triumph etc.) chance music, serial music, twelve-tone music just won't do the job. If you care to appreciate a work, even for just a fleeting moment, for bucking the trend, being 'revolutionary' (for good or ill) or for attempting to bring about the first MAJOR change to music theory in centuries than you can 'get' a lot of the modern stuff. I don't care to listen to Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, or Cage but I do appreciate what they attempted. They did not fully realise what they were going for though IMO. I used to march in a drum and bugle corps. Corps music is often just the climaxes from great works excerpted, played loudly, and compressed into a 10 minute show. At 17 I found this to be the pinnacle of music. (wooooo this is exciting!) After completing a music degree (yes I have one of those kooleje dagreez) I realize how important hearing the big picture of a work of Mahler or Shostakovich is, how more fulfilling these climaxes are when you get the hour or so of build-up and tension. I feel that the ideas started by the second Viennese school and the minimalists can be adapted to evoke a similar gratifying response... sometime. Maybe I'll live to hear works like this, maybe I won't.

Regarding the side discussion on Marrywanna. I smoked weed quite heavily for about 3 years of school. I smoked opium, I drank heavily, I smoked tobacco regularly, I used LSD. I started working at a place with strict STRICT drug policies and have been illegal drug free for roughly 18 months. Were it legal would I do some of it again? sure, It's fun. In the same way drinking is fun. However, I never considered myself to have a drug problem. I've known people who have, and do. I find that the lives of the people addicted to illegal drugs (well weed at least, which does little to your physical health, even after prolonged use) are only made worse than those with addictions to legal drugs because of the drug's illegality Alcoholism runs very prevently in my family. My Grandfathers' alcoholism created serious problems for their children (my parents, aunts, and uncles) but their lives were not outright ruined. Those I know who have had their lives ruined by Marijuana use is generally because of run-ins with the law associated with that drug.

Those of you completely condemning the use of illegal drugs: legal status aside, do you drink alcohol to excess (even occasionally)? Do you need a cup of coffee in the morning to get your day started? Do you smoke a cigar in times of celebration? All these substances are drugs people. I feel that just about all substances should be legal. We have heinous poisons and toxins in our under-sink cabinets, drinking these could result in incredible highs, I'll never know because the side-effect is death. A person can ruin their life with Alcohol as easily as they can with weed, or LSD, or Cocaine, or Opium. I know my limits, I can hold my liquor. Some people's limits are clearly much lower, it is therefore that person's choice whether they wish to use (or possibly abuse) a particular substance. It is no more my place (or a government's place) to say someone can't smoke weed as it is to say everyone MUST smoke weed.

[Rick Denney]

I would only add that most accounts I've read of marijuana use not causing any real consequences (other than legal ones) are recounted by current or former users.

I submit that it is difficult to assess those effects by the person seeking to justify its use. Rationalizations are sometimes extreme, and even comical. How many times have you heard that a drunk driver is safer because he is "looser" in an accident? From my perspective as a non-user who has many acquaintances who are, those effects are plain to see. As plain as they are to non-user observers, they are usually stoutly denied by the users. For marijuana, I know people who are unmotivated to address life's daily responsibilities, remain depressed, disregard their obligation to set a good example for their kids, lose conviction when dealing with the problems their kids inevitably fall into, suffer ruined relationships, destructive accidents (often with innocent victims), and so on. No, not everyone suffers all these consequences, of course, but it's hard to know how life might have gone without it.

Alcoholics are the same, by the way, and I've known quite a few of those as well, closely enough to know what Al-Anon meetings are like. Casual coffee drinkers? Not so much.

Some can use these substances with no consequences. But many are grabbed by them. The statement "I can quit anytime" has become a standing joke--maybe cliche but everyone recognizes the thread of truth in the joke. Everyone, especially young'uns, assume they are in the former category, but observations of their behavior into later years suggests that they often assume incorrectly. It is a dangerous experiment by people unable to predict the consequences.

Rick "no stranger to rationalization" Denney

[ArnoldGottlieb]

Always interesting when Bloke stirs the pot.......(no pun intended)
Weed, booze, sounds like individual freedoms to me. As long as I have the freedom to not pay any money for the consequences, it's all good. If I do have to pay my government to take care of these people, and I had to choose one or the other, alcohol would be outlawed. Causes traffic accidents and serious long term mental and physical problems. Weed seems to make people hug each other. If someone is lazy, they're lazy with or without weed is the way I see it.
Peace.
A.

[SRanney]

No, not everyone suffers all these consequences, of course, but it's hard to know how life might have gone without it.

This is a key point in this argument. For many users of marijuana, there have not been any consequences and certainly may never be. Their argument that "well, it hasn't hurt me" may be accurate, but is not representative of the whole population of users. People who used and currently use marijuana will never know what their life would have been like had they not smoked pot. It may have been much better with a great many things accomplished much earlier in life. Certainly their lives would have been different even if in some unquantifiable way.

I don't advocate for the decriminalization of marijuana, the medicinal use of marijuana, nor do I advocate for people to experiment with illegal substances. What frustrates me is when people suggest that their lack of use is a morally superior position than those who use and that all users will suffer the same fate (e.g., unmotivation to address life's daily responsibilities, depression, ruined relationships, etc.). No doubt many users have made many poor life decisions. Some have hurt others, either physically, emotionally, or financially. As someone very close to addiction and alcoholism (close enough to know what the chip system is and where to find friends of Bill in at least 10 major cities (and many, many other small towns) around the country), I really don't think it's anybody's place to judge the illicit drug use of someone else. Hope and pray that they recognize what their actions are doing, but being judgemental is not going to get an addict away from their bong, off of their lines, to pull the needle out of their arm, or to put their bottle down.

Steven "a few 24 hours" Ranney

[TUBAD83]

No, not everyone suffers all these consequences, of course, but it's hard to know how life might have gone without it.

This is a key point in this argument. For many users of marijuana, there have not been any consequences and certainly may never be. Their argument that "well, it hasn't hurt me" may be accurate, but is not representative of the whole population of users. People who used and currently use marijuana will never know what their life would have been like had they not smoked pot. It may have been much better with a great many things accomplished much earlier in life. Certainly their lives would have been different even if in some unquantifiable way.

I would like to reply to both of these statements as a former marijuana smoker and current consumer of alcohol: Neither pot nor booze played any role in any major decision in my life and I say this with 100% certainty--I made them all with a clear head (even the BAD decisions). Use of both were strictly recreational and (for the most part) done in moderation. Any habit, whether its pot, booze, or hamburgers can have disastrous consequences when you let it get out of control. Is it really fair to ban a product based on the actions of others? Is the "War on Drugs" really working? Does it make any sense to continue it?

Its time to de-politicize our drug policies and honestly and rationally discuss and make changes...hopefully without having to wait for another generation to die out.

JJ

[Virtuoso]

I've always like hamburgers. I would quite often eat one or two, in celebration of some accomplishment or another. One day, however, my freezer broke, and there were seventeen pounds of ground beef about to go bad. So I said, what the heck, and started grilling. when it was all cooked, I began eating, bringing my plate over to the piano where I began recording some jazz improv. I kept eating and eating though...

Fifteen pounds down, I woke up the next morning with a pounding headache, so late for work that it was most prudent not to go in at all. I sat down and listened to my earlier recording, and it was AWFUL, the worst I had done.

Two weeks later, I was still eating hamburger, meeting someone on the corner at 7:03 each evening to replenish my supply. I had lost my job and no longer had a piano to improvise on....


Hamburgers are nice on occasion, but once you really start eating them it's a long dark road.

[jamsav]

hmmmm, In an effort to return this thread to its original purpose and away from the somewhat controversial debate about drugs and alcohol lets talk about jackass contemporary composers !! Speaking of Nehlybel, now there goes a composer who really understood his players !!! Sitting in front of him on Trittico , some 35 years ago when obviously he was still alive , and I was a mear child ( 17ish, AllState whatever) he stopped the band and began smashing his stand to the ground !! " Tubaaaas !!!! Zat eez not loudt enuff !!!!". Some ridiculous near pedal tone ( keep in mind , we're 3 maybe 4 kids with horns bigger than us ) , so , we hyperventilated and blew the old bastard off of the podium. He stopped the band again, " Tubaas !!! Zat eez nott goodt enuff !!!! "
I have been a non fan of any of his bs tonal crap ever since ......
Am I speaking ill of the dead ? Or simply his crapositions ?

[sloan]

hmmmm, In an effort to return this thread to its original purpose and away from the somewhat controversial debate about drugs and alcohol lets talk about jackass contemporary composers !! Speaking of Nehlybel, now there goes a composer who really understood his players !!! Sitting in front of him on Trittico , some 35 years ago when obviously he was still alive , and I was a mear child ( 17ish, AllState whatever) he stopped the band and began smashing his stand to the ground !! " Tubaaaas !!!! Zat eez not loudt enuff !!!!". Some ridiculous near pedal tone ( keep in mind , we're 3 maybe 4 kids with horns bigger than us ) , so , we hyperventilated and blew the old bastard off of the podium. He stopped the band again, " Tubaas !!! Zat eez nott goodt enuff !!!! "
I have been a non fan of any of his bs tonal crap ever since ......
Am I speaking ill of the dead ? Or simply his crapositions ?

I see no inconsistency here. When you played "good" it was not loud enough; when you played "loud" it was no longer good. This corresponds well with my past experiences with 17yo tuba players.

[kegmcnabb]

I see no inconsistency here. When you played "good" it was not loud enough; when you played "loud" it was no longer good. This corresponds well with my past experiences with 17yo tuba players.