Bruckner 4

[Todd S. Malicoate]

About that lick in the first movement that jumps from Bb/Cb in the staff back-and-forth to Eb above...

That's a dicey little jump. I know you have to play strictly as written in an audition setting, but those of you already in orchestras that have performed this...do you "cheat a little" and take the last couple of notes up an octave or leave them out?

Todd, who thinks such a "revision" makes the passage much more secure

[imperialbari]

Never played it myself, so I wanted to take a look:

P3.jpg

I guess you refer to the bars around letter Q.

Klaus

[Todd S. Malicoate]

That's the one, Klaus. What do you think?

[imperialbari]

Haven’t studied Bruckner in depth. Only I know, that he did endless revisions on his own works. Conductors also rewrote parts for performances in certain orchestras. I once saw a German TV feature displaying in sounding samples 4 or 5 versions of the same horn passage (there were 8 horns sitting in the studio, but some versions only employed 4 of them).

This as a preface to the discussion of your question. My online source for score material also provides a score for the same passage, but obviously from a different version of the same symphony:

P56.jpg

As we are talking different versions, no conclusions are allowed. Yet I may reveal my immediate reaction from quite a bit of experience in score reading:

The high Eb on Q is pretty well covered in horns and trombones. In your version possibly also by the bassbone. Whereas the preceding notes only have the tuba representing the brasses in that low octave. If I were the conductor, which I won’t ever be, and you asked me, then I would want you to be very exact on the notes leading to Q, whereas I would allow for the high Eb to be taken very lightly (read: omitted), if you would know how to reenter that passage in a way, which would not be abrupt, but still made it move (some of the higher instruments have the high Eb as a long note).

Klaus

[Wyvern]

I have played Bruckner 4 on both Eb (Besson 981) and CC (Neptune) and both times played as written. When playing with orchestra I would always aim to play exactly as written unless the conductor says otherwise.

That is not an easy lick, but can be done with practice. Unless you have a performance very imminent, then I would suggest practicing daily until confident. If you have a concert tomorrow and cannot play, better to omit that high Eb than to mess it up!

[cambrook]

I think the OP is asking if people leave out the last Bb (or the last Cb and Bb) so that they can come in securely on the high Eb.

Cheers

[imperialbari]

I think the OP is asking if people leave out the last Bb (or the last Cb and Bb) so that they can come in securely on the high Eb.

Cheers

I realise that. But the OP only could have asked that question without knowing the score. If he had known the score, he clearly would have seen that the notes leading up to letter Q are of a much greater importance, colourwise, than is the high Eb itself. If the whole passage shall be modified for ease of playing, then not by omitting from among the Cb’s or Bb’, but by omitting the high Eb, which in the same octave is played by trombone, horns, and a trumpet.

Klaus

[cambrook]

Klaus, while I can see your reasoning in saying that the Bb-Cb-Cb-Bb may appear more important in the score than the tune starting on the high Eb, in all the times that I've played I've not felt that. I've always felt that the 6 bars before Q are an extended "wait for it - wait for it" chordal section that is drawn out as only Bruckner can do to increase the impact of the tune returning. This build-up is heightened by the simple (yet very effective) swapping of the Cb and Bb 2 beats before Q.

I Understand your point Klaus, my post was in reply to Jonathan's comment about omitting the high Eb.

My advice to the OP would be that if you have to leave out a note then leave out the final Bb, but you should be able to work it up I definitely wouldn't put anything up an octave.

Cheers,

Cam

[Wyvern]

my post was in reply to Jonathan's comment about omitting the high Eb.

Omitting is certainly not desirable, but as it is doubled on bass trombone, better to omit than mis-pitch.

I cannot remember where I heard, but it has been instilled into me that when one plays in concert always make sure one adds to the performance - if likely to mess up with a mis-pitch (or whatever), better to be tacit - particularly if part covered elsewhere.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Thanks for the replies so far. No imminent performance, just general excerpt study. I've been revisiting pieces I don't work on much and this came up.

That score example Klaus put up certainly changes the way I look at this excerpt (the articulations look like the biggest deal to me, particularly that last rooftop accent), but it wouldn't do much for it at an audition. It's just a difficult leap...for me without a ton of repetition it's about a 50/50 shot as written with no time to "prepare" for the high Eb. With practice I could probably get it up to a 90% success rate, but I wouldn't feel great even about those odds in a performance.

I do prefer Klaus' "fix"...play all the notes leading up to Q and leave out the downbeat if so desired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3wocsFr1I...cue is around 5:15.

[Alex C]

Torchinsky, in the preface to the Bruckner series, "if you wish, drop the last B-flat on the last beat before letter Q to insure getting the high E-flat..." He does say the you should never leave it out in an audition.

However, the copyright of Torchinsky's Vol. 13 (Bruckner) of "The Tuba Player's Orchestral Repertoire" was registered in 1985, 25 years ago. With the performance level of today's tuba players, I would be surprised to hear anyone leave the B-flat out.

Practice, practice, practice. Then, practice some more.

[awaters]

i have played Bruckner 4 twice. i believe the challenge of orchestral playing is the playing the parts not my version of them. i'd love to play Berlioz Romeo an octave down even on the F tuba.
To expand in truth, if playing long notes doubled by celli or double bass i'll take a breath to avoid running out of air. If doubling bass trombone i'll do this before solos or exposed work in Wind Band.
Orchestral conductors seem most particular about the most technical and exposed passages. If only because they rarely get to hassle tuba/low brass about technique(as compared with horns or bassons).
Good Luck and have fun!!

[MartyNeilan]

FWIW, I positively love how that high Eb sounds on a big horn, listening to Jacobs and Deck play it on their respective benchmark recordings. I played it twice in and orchestra rep class and never had issues with the jump; first time was on a 190 BBb. My vote is keep it there, and nail it with a big phat sound. Keep in mind that AB was writing for a German F tuba on the #4, so that note wouldn't be an issue on a horn like that. I think my Conn Giant Eb would be a perfect horn for the #4, although I would probably want a true contrabass for the equally popular #7.

[imperialbari]

No matter what: the ideal solution is to play the written music.

But if faking is called for, then preferably intelligent faking.

Cameron does the right reference to Bruckner’s extended harmonic suspense. I just happen to disagree about his suggestion for a fake. Bruckner works a lot with dominant 7th chords. The tension built up during the approach towards letter Q mostly points towards the tonic of Eb, but could also lead to A major, the tritone substitute. All instruments but for the bassbone, the tuba, and the low strings move in the same patterns in the last two bars before Q. The low line turns the shift pattern in the last bar before Q. In my interpretation that makes the 3rd quarter of the last bar pointing strongly towards A, whereas the 4th quarter points towards, what really comes on the first beat of Q.

Omitting notes just before Q will lessen the listeners perception of Bruckner’s harmonic hide and seek game.

As for playing wide leaps: they can be trained. They are part of my routines, tongued and slurred, because they reveal shortcomings in embouchure and intonation (and at the same time help overcoming these problems). I do my routines by ear, but I have written them down and have made them available for free download from my Yahoo based project:

Interval routines by Klaus Bjerre for all treble and bass clef brasses:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... 20brasses/

These routines are the same for all bass clef brasses. They start very low and end very high. Point is that each player picks a key within his/hers comfortable range and then works his/hers way upwards and downwards from there. Preferably through all chromatic increments, but this old teacher knows that picking familiar key in the first stages gives a more comfortable and confident start. I add a screenshot of the key singling out the main problem of the given Bruckner excerpt, but the most productive way will be to start considerably lower and then work towards this line shown.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

bloke "I suspect most would choose to perform this work on a contrabass tuba. I've used the F; It's easy/clear/resonant, and blends.

Although I played previously on CC, when/if it next comes up, I plan to play on my F seeing Basstuba is what Bruckner expected for this work.

Jonathan "who now uses his F in the orchestra for most Basstuba parts (recently Liszt and Elgar)"

[Jobey Wilson]

hey Todd...hope all's well back home! If i recall correctly, I think i actually breath right before that Bb & "spring up" to the Eb...my analogy here is a "diving board." When i think of it that way, no problem. I'll practice jumps like that slurred...gets the right air direction going (and it's friggin hard & kicks your butt...great training!). This makes it feel much easier when tongued, increasing confidence.

I've performed this on F & CC. Honeslty (piggishly) enjoy the BAT, but many colleagues enjoyed the blend of F better. Next time I play it, I might take both horns. Either way one chooses, it's a ton of fun to play!!!

Jobey

[Mitch]

I must begin by pointing out I've not performed this piece with orchestra, but worked on the excerpt a number of times and with different teachers.

I'm going to suggest a different possibility, then explain why.

IMHO, the better place to breathe is on the 2nd Cb, rather than the last Bb in the bar.

A couple reasons are the basis for this:

1) Taken as a line, the Cb is functioning as an upper neighbor. By beat 3 it's been stated and is, to a small point, aurally redundant on beat 3. By breathing on the Bb on 4, the upper neighbor is without its resolution at the expense of repeating the upper neighbor.

2) Take a look at what the woodwinds, some of the horns and strings are doing in those two bars - whole note (tied or tremoloed) to the dotted half, then a quarter on 4. That rhythm, otherwise from top to bottom of the score, seems to MHO that beat 4 is more important than 3, insofar as the group as a whole is concerned.

The argument should also be made that, while 20th century pop music has most people hearing most pieces of music with a "4-1" beat relationship, usually dominant-tonic, this isn't one of those instances. The theme, as I recall, always starts on 1, without a "pick-up," so that quarter on 4 that the upper winds and strings are doing can/should be viewed as the terminus of the chords prior to Q rather than the preparation for the arrival of Q, IMHO.

But I'd still breathe on 3. I haven't played it with an orchestra yet, but when I play the excerpt, I breathe on 3.