mouthpiece question

[sirjohna]

This is my first post although I've been a lurker for around a year. I'm a euphonium player in a community band. I restarted after stopping out of high school 30 years ago. It's my second year back and i'm still learning on the euphonium. I was having such a good time in my community band that I convinced my old band teacher to start up another band with total beginners and really rusty players such as myself. Much like a new horizons band. It's going great. We have about 45 members. I've been playing tuba with the total beginners class.
My problem is, we got the tuner out for the first time last rehearsal. I'm playing an Eb boosey and Hawkes Imperial tuba. I'm really flat on almost all notes. The tuba is 1930-31 vintage and has a couple of replacement valves (2nd and 4 th). A tech spent alot of time on them to make them fit. the tuba is in otherwise very good shape, a few tiny dents. My mouthpiece is a l + M 25 aw. If I pull the all slides out an inch from full in, the tuner changes down a half note for the entire Bb scale. I tried my euphonium mouthpiece and I do much better. It this my embouchure. Any Ideas.
BTW this group is great.

John from PEI CAN

[Doug Elliott]

How far does the mouthpiece go into the receiver?
I don't recognize the mouthpiece you mentioned... what is it?

[imperialbari]

Don’t know your mouthpiece either, but if its stem is like the Bach it apparently clones, then it is not the optimal fit for the receiver of your tuba. Until the end of 1983 the British made tubas had small receivers sized like the receivers of bass trombones.

You may have the receiver changed, but even if that will make the mouthpiece enter deeper, I am not sure the pitch will be raised as much as you apparently need.

That places the problem somewhere else. You may not like hearing about the most obvious reason. Some players play very flat, when changing to an instrument new to them. I have been there myself, but when I got my air support adjusted, the pitch became right.

I wouldn’t recommend any cutting of the instrument beyond the change of receiver until you are playing with a full sound and an even scale all over your range.

Your mouthpiece may simply be a bad clone, which causes problems, but then the Kelly Lexan mouthpieces are so cheap that they allow for owning clones of 2 or 3 of the most standard American models. I don’t like the Kelly’s for tubas myself, but leading you towards the more expensive models I use wouldn’t be fair advice towards you.

Welcome as an active contributor on TubeNet!

Klaus

[jamsav]

welcome John- that old B&H Eb horn most likely has the smaller British reciever. I wouldn t rush to have it changed out until you have spent a bit more time with the tuba . I would recommend you try to find a Dennis Wick mouthpiece with the appropriately sized smaller shank- (of course , after you've confirmed the reciever size ) they seem to come up for sale here regularly and are not too expensive used . Check out the search function in the For Sale forum...good luck !! jamsav

[Doug Elliott]

As Klaus said, it is very likely a combination of time spent on the horn and the wrong receiver for the mouthpiece. I would guess that you mouthpiece goes in less than 1/2 inch. In my own mouthpiece series, I make shanks for those horns, and there are Wicks available with the correct shank. I'm not aware of any others. But also, if your "25AW" mouthpiece is like a 24AW, it's entirely too deep for that Eb tuba, and that may be a third reason for the pitch problem.

As far as time on the horn goes, your pitch may rise gradually over a period of years playing it. I had that same thing happen. I used to be primarily a large bore trombone player, then switched to primarily small bore when I got a full time jazz gig in the Airmen of Note. Going back to occasionally playing a large bore, I had no issues playing it except the pitch was a bit low. Eventually it straightened itself out with more time on the horn - but just trying to play at a higher pitch never worked.

[sirjohna]

woops the mouthpiece is a 24 aw. No name on it and it goes in 5/8th inches. Thanks for your info. I think i'll go for a slow hunt for a better mouthpiece. I use a dennis wick on my euphonium. If I put my large shank euphonium (bass trombone?) into the tuba it goes in more than and inch. Almost exactly to where it goes into my euphonium. So I guess i need a bass trombone sized shank on a smaller shallower shaped tuba mouthpiece

[imperialbari]

Doug certainly is worth listening to. I don’t have any of his mouthpieces, which is not a rejection from my side, but a result of my hunting happening while Doug’s workshop had been ruined by fire.

First I see yet another potential problem behind the OP finding his tuba being flat. There has been an exchange of pistons, and that leaves the possibility, that the alignment is not optimal. There may be problems in matters of height at both ends of the strokes and in matters of rotation. I have two tubas with the (in principle) exact same valve block. Aside from alignment the slides are exchangeable. The older one from 1923 has had an Anderson valve job, so the pistons are no exchangeable. Still the airpath is the same.

I recently got several set of blokewashers. I cannot do the measurement myself, so I ordered two similar sets for these two tubas. When installing the washers I saw a difference coming from the 1999 sample having nylon valve guides sitting on a disk on top of the piston. The 1923 sample has the guide sitting on side of the piston. I didn’t put the blokewashers under the top cap on the old one, because bloke did his measurements on the new version. I only but them under the finger buttons, which in itself lead to an improved response on valved notes.

This detour to explain the roots of a potential alignment problem.

The mouthpieces coming with less than custom class instruments often are there only to let the occasional street shoppers have the sense of an easy blow. Better players most often shun the 7C, 12C, and whatever types of mouthpieces. Finding the right mouthpieces for more advanced playing isn’t that easy. I know which parameters to look for and which modifications to do, yet surprises happen. I like Denis Wick’s tenor trombone mouthpieces. The 4AL was great with one large tenor, which I eventually had to sell to get some money. 12 years later I bought another large tenor, which was good, but not quite as good as the old one when played on the 4AL. In 2008 TubeNet’ter Søren visited me and gave me a Conn Remington, which happened bringing a whole new dimension of life to that trombone. These two mouthpieces are in the same magnitude, but the small differences were significant in the sonic result. I had no chance to know that before trying both.

Klaus

[Donn]

So I guess i need a bass trombone sized shank on a smaller shallower shaped tuba mouthpiece

Denis Wick makes the only widely available small shank mouthpieces, as far as I know. Numbers 1 through 5, without the "L" - i.e., "4" is small, "4L" is large. In terms of cup size, 1 is big, 4 and 5 are relatively small. I have 2 and 5. 5 is on the small side but deep and makes a good tuba mouthpiece. The silver plating on mine has not been very good, but it isn't like there's any real alternative anyway.

[Doug Elliott]

Wicks are fine mouthpieces, but I wouldn't say they're the only choice...

My L, N, and P cups for tuba are all available with bass trombone shanks, which screw on so you can also change them to tuba shanks, which are available in American, European, and a variety of other sizes. I make quite a few rims in different sizes and shapes that are completely interchangeable on all of my cups.

I hope this isn't straying too far in the "advertising" direction, but it seems that there is very little acknowledgement on this board that my mouthpieces exist.

[Donn]

Indeed, and there may as well be several others who support small shanks on a custom order basis.

I think there's a real difference, though - the price. I actually read about Doug Elliot mouthpieces here a fair amount, it sure seems like more than a few serious players use them, but you're right, rarely recommended in the present case, I think because we're guessing that the new owner of a (usually) very inexpensive old Eb tuba that may not even be practically playable is really looking for something less expensive than a Denis Wick.

But for a serious player, I can see it might be a good investment, since the shank can be exchanged to make the same mouthpiece(s) work on standard shank receivers. (Maybe including that Eb tuba, after its receiver has been replaced with a standard one as some would recommend.)

[iiipopes]

I would also check the horn for valve alignment, both laterally and vertically, and other leaks and/or obstructions.

As far as receiver size, on my old Besson BBb 3-valve comp I can use the standard Wick 1 on it and everything is great. But I can also stick a standard Bach 18 in it, knowing it only goes into the receiver @ 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch, but not have any really noticable intonation differences, just a whang-ier tone. So I'm not sure the OP's old Besson is going flat from the receiver/mouthpiece change/match/mismatch/whatever.

The acid test would be to get a Wick 3, if it still has the original receiver, or a 3L if the receiver has been "modernized" to .520, and have someone else who is experienced, like the low brass professor at the local or regional university or such, play it to see if it is still flat. If it is, then the horn needs to go to a tech. If not, then a lot of practice and probably some private tutoring to make sure the embouchure is properly formed and the breath support is adequate, is in order.

Hey, I was out of playing brass for a couple of decades myself, and when I first came back I immediately got help. My problem was the opposite: from leftover habits of playing trumpet in grade through high school, I wasn't forming the interior of my mouth cavity properly, and everything in the low range was going sharp.

[jamsav]

Mr Elliot makes very fine mouthpieces !!! sorry Doug- didnt mean to point OP in any other direction...