Sticking piston valves

Lee Stofer · Post by **Lee Stofer** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:27 am

Right on< Joe!
Ninety percent of valve problems I deal with here in the shop are dirt related< ditto with trombone hand slides>

I tell people that if they want to determine if their instrument needs a chemical cleaning< just remove the valves and let them and the valve casings dry out> If they remain clean_looking when dry< they are fine> If they turn green or white in appearance when dry< you have an instrument that needs attention now> Continued use of an instrument with calcium deposits will accelerate the valve wear> Consider this_ calcium and oil are the two primary ingredients of most polishing and grinding compounds>

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:47 am

We are extremely fortunate to have gentlemen like Lee and Joe 'Bloke" among several others such as Daniel Oberloh and Dan Schultz on the list for answering these types of questions in particular. Good sound information is hard to come by and having it shared by guys who know their stuff is always a nice luxury. Thank you all.

Merry Christmas to Everyone

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:42 am

Paul S wrote:We are extremely fortunate to have gentlemen like Lee and Joe 'Bloke" among several others such as Daniel Oberloh and Dan Schultz on the list for answering these types of questions....

Thanks for your kind words, Paul. However, the things I know have been extracted from guys like Lee, Joe, and Daniel.... who REALLY know what they are talking about!

Have a great holiday!

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:27 pm

I'd like to echo the words of Paul and others who says thanks to our instrument repair guys who regular post on this forum. In fact, I would add a word of thanks to all who are willing to share a portion of their knowledge and wisdom, here. I have learned much from you.

Merry Christmas!

tubarepair · Post by **tubarepair** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:41 pm

Let's add:

Matt Walters
Sam Gagney
and Lee's protege' Andy Smith to the list....

DLH

Lee Jacobs · Post by **Lee Jacobs** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:58 pm

I was just curious how you would go about removing the mineral deposits on the valves yourself. I've had it professionally done before, but is it possible to remove it myself using some sort of chemical or something? Just curious.

Lee

WoodSheddin · Post by **WoodSheddin** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:34 pm

bloke wrote:Your horn is a cesspool of rotting doughnuts, Pepsi, and snot. Have that 3 year old scum blasted out by a professional. For the love of humanity.

Paul S wrote:We are extremely fortunate to have gentlemen like Lee and Joe 'Bloke" among several others such as Daniel Oberloh and Dan Schultz on the list for answering these types of questions in particular. Good sound information is hard to come by and having it shared by guys who know their stuff is always a nice luxury. Thank you all.

Don't take much. Do it?

Tom Mason · Post by **Tom Mason** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:20 pm

Just don't walk into his shop when he's lacquering a sousaphone bell!

aaaaaaaiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

Tom

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:50 pm

harold wrote:A home chem clean? Possible, but probably not the best idea. I don't know what the typical charge is, but it is probably close to $400 for a five valve tuba.

$400 for just a chem-clean!? I'll even cover the Greyhound Express both ways for that!

jlbreyer · Post by **jlbreyer** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:06 pm

harold wrote:A home chem clean? Possible, but probably not the best idea. I don't know what the typical charge is, but it is probably close to $400 for a five valve tuba.

The Osmun Music site lists these prices for tuba:

Chemical cleaning

* per piston valve - $35.00
* per rotary valve - $45.00

Other services are separately listed.

I think it's time again for my Mira 183 to go see Jim.

jlb

Daniel C. Oberloh · Post by **Daniel C. Oberloh** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:37 pm

I love reading the statements made regarding costs of cleaning a tuba and how they are priced from shop to shop. This kind of work is different than repair itself as it can be done by most any able bodied person with reasonably good sense and a careful attitude; that and access to the proper equipment and understanding of what is involved with the procedures. At any rate, this is the no-brainer part of the Technician's job.

Like a lot of those on this board, I spent a great deal of money on my horns when I bought them. I trust few technicians to even hold my horn let alone take it apart and work on it. I am lucky that I am in a position to service my own instruments and when I clean my horn, I will take the better part of the day doing it correctly and in detail as I will not want to be doing it again for some time. I will now and then pull the valves, snake out the pipe and rinse it out. But when the real cleaning is done there is a lot more involved then swishing it around in a tub of soapy water.

Look, the cost of cleaning will depend on the shop's hourly rate and what is done in their chem-cleaning process. If they take the horn apart, tank it, wash it out and simply stick it back together, a five valve rotary horn is a $240 job (in my shop). If it is the same type of instrument and the same job but with other additional services performed (such as a horn that has not been cleaned in years, refitting all the valve bearings, correcting the linkage issues, replacing the rotor stops and aligning the ports, replacing lever springs, H2O corks and springs, a little dent work, etc,etc.) the time and cost increases. Piston valves may need minor work like new guides. I like to lightly block lap the pistons as it helps the action to feel a bit smoother. Raw brass has its issues as well. Chemicals can create rather unsightly discoloration to the brass. I will Brasso and white-diamond buff the horn in order to deliver a more uniform look. This takes know-how, skill and rather expensive equipment. Other shops do not and leave it as is and if that is okay with owner of the horn, fine. Silver plate? The cleaning process can leave the silver hazy and dull and if that is okay with its owner, great. Silver polish creams can be used and though they will improve the look they just don't do as good a job as machine polishing. If done properly it should be hand ragged and color-buffed to a bright mirror finish on the polishing lathe, getting into the area that requires much higher levels of skill and experience, not to mention time. If it is a large bright silver plated instrument, it is going to cost a bit more as they are a lot more work and the owners of these instruments may not just be looking for a chem-clean but may be expecting it to sparkle. What if it is a satin-silver finish that needs special treatment like scratch brushing and color buffing? It's even more work.

Simply put, tubas come in a number of sizes, finishes, and valve configurations that will impact the time needed to do the job correctly. If you want it done well, it is going to take time and that costs more. If the Tech spends the whole day on a job cleaning a horn and makes minimum wage, he probably should change business practices or consider another line of employment.

My shop does not offer this kind of service but... players looking for the $100 bare minimum chem-clean should understand that they can get it most anywhere, but don't expect anything more. And if you insist on this service understand that you forfeit your right to complain about other issues not addressed such as dents, broken/loose solder joints, sticky valve action and finish issues. The bottom line is "you get what you pay for" - or maybe less.

Daniel "who feels care is needed when giving the blanket prices on any job" Oberloh

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Saving the world one horn at a time

www.oberloh.com

Lee Stofer · Post by **Lee Stofer** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:27 am

Exactly - that is why I don't like to quote a price on a tuba chem-clean without having inspected it first, and don't give a blanket chem-clean price.

Dan's thoughtful posting covers why I charge quite a bit more to fully service a silver-plated 5/4 or 6/4, 5-valve monster of a horn that has not been cleaned in several years, and why a nearly-new lacquered 3/4, 3-piston tuba with no dents will get cleaned at a relatively low price.

Customers may just send an instrument to me for cleaning, but I may find any number of issues with the instrument, some of which the customer may not have been aware of. To paraphrase a quote by a Mercedes factory technician, " If every little detail is excellent, then the whole will be excellent".

bigboom · Post by **bigboom** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:30 pm

I myslef used to have problems with this. I tried the cleaning and changing valve oils but there were two things that helped a lot. The first is to apply oil at least everyday, even if you don't play. The second was to clean the leadpipe and mouthpiece ever two weeks or so, it works wonders. I used to use Al Cass valve oil but have recently come across a new way to lube them up. I use a few drops of Marvel Wonder, a diesel fuel additive found at most auto parts stores and will be in a red bottle, and a thurough coating of lamp oil, this is usually found at wal-mart or craft stores and I would not recomend scented and be sure it is 100% pure and is petroleum based. If you don't want to try that form of oil look at this website, it explains the qualities needed and found in different valve oils: [/url]http://www.musichem.com/articles/p_oil_e.htm Hope this helps and good luck.

Ben Dennis[/url]

TubeNet

Sticking piston valves

Sticking piston valves

Just don't............