M&Ms new CC tuba !

[bort]

I think this is the BBb "brother" of it...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tuba-BBb-M-M-TU-800 ... _500wt_928" target="_blank

At $3200, the $3790 "or best offer" sounds about right and it will make some people happy (not me though).

But yeah... for almost $4k, why not save a little more and get a real Miraphone instead of a fake one?

[tubamlb]

Hi
Guys this is a 5/4 5 valve Tuba that is good as any tuba you buy for $9000.00 for $3750.00

We will be offering them at this low price for a short time

You cant hardly buy the case and shipping for $900.00 so please before you write comments check your facts

MLB

[bort]

Hi
Guys this is a 5/4 5 valve Tuba that is good as any tuba you buy for $9000.00 for $3750.00

We will be offering them at this low price for a short time

You cant hardly buy the case and shipping for $900.00 so please before you write comments check your facts

MLB

I'm sure these tubas play just fine, and yes, that's a good price for a decent tuba. Someone will be happy with this tuba. It's just the whole "cloning" principle that bothers me, and I will never buy a Chinese clone instrument out of principle.

[Euphistuba]

Ok..... Im confused..... Its ok for Yamaha and others to base their designs on Besson, York and others.....but if a Chinese firm does it its Cloning which is bad? How many firms have based horns on York designs? Isnt the new Kanstul (over priced I think) nothing but a well done clone?
Before we start throwing around negative comments about horns....lets be realistic.
If I could buy a decently made well playing horn for even a third more than whats coming out of the Asian markets I would....but I cant. For reasons that are beyond me, American firms cant get their act together to produce a decent horn at a decent price. If this is a market driven economy.....and it is.....guys..... we are the market. It can be done, but profit is more important than the musical product.
Not to be overly cynical, but the music in schools movement, of which I suspect most of us are a product, was driven by the need of the music manufacturers to replace the lost revenue from the demise of touring pro bands and municipal bands.
Im on the fence myself about this very horn. I own a Shiller CC clone and its working for me. But I want a piston CC and I know that I can get a decent used one if I wait a little longer.....but who likes to wait right? Then again, the CC clone I have plays better than some of the very horns its made from, so whos to say this clone isnt actually an improvement over the very horn its based from? Sure the guys selling these things want to make money, and if it were in the high 2K range it would be more attractive to me. But it is what it is. Given the likely rise in prices of Chinese goods that are sure to come, this is a bargin, as are all the Asian horns right now.

[bort]

Ok..... Im confused..... Its ok for Yamaha and others to base their designs on Besson, York and others.....but if a Chinese firm does it its Cloning which is bad? How many firms have based horns on York designs? Isnt the new Kanstul (over priced I think) nothing but a well done clone?
Before we start throwing around negative comments about horns....lets be realistic.
If I could buy a decently made well playing horn for even a third more than whats coming out of the Asian markets I would....but I cant. For reasons that are beyond me, American firms cant get their act together to produce a decent horn at a decent price. If this is a market driven economy.....and it is.....guys..... we are the market. It can be done, but profit is more important than the musical product.
Not to be overly cynical, but the music in schools movement, of which I suspect most of us are a product, was driven by the need of the music manufacturers to replace the lost revenue from the demise of touring pro bands and municipal bands.
Im on the fence myself about this very horn. I own a Shiller CC clone and its working for me. But I want a piston CC and I know that I can get a decent used one if I wait a little longer.....but who likes to wait right? Then again, the CC clone I have plays better than some of the very horns its made from, so whos to say this clone isnt actually an improvement over the very horn its based from? Sure the guys selling these things want to make money, and if it were in the high 2K range it would be more attractive to me. But it is what it is. Given the likely rise in prices of Chinese goods that are sure to come, this is a bargin, as are all the Asian horns right now.

I started a thread on this a few months back. I don't think many people agreed with me, and I'm not saying anyone has to. And to be clear, I would never "look down" on anyone else or anyone's instrument for being Chinese. If it's your thing, do your thing. But it's not my thing.

I don't really have a beef with Kanstul, since they are resurrecting some dead designs that otherwise were not currently in production. If York were still making these tubas today, I'd question this as well. Also, didn't Zig get some proprietary information from them about the metallurgy of the instruments? A little more than the "hey, let me copy this..." that seems to happen in China.

My big problem is the cherrypicking of bigtime R&D time and money. The 1291 clone is a good example -- the 1291 is a unique tuba design, so it's quite obvious where the Chinese companies got the idea from. If I were Miraphone, I would not feel threatened, but I would be annoyed. The Germans are savvy businesspeople, and I'm sure they are well prepared for this. No, cloning is not a terribly new idea. But I guess I wasn't alive yet or too young when the first waves of it happened, but it always seemed to me like instrument manufacturers adding their version of a horn to their product line, rather than manufacturers basing their entire product line totally around copying instruments otherwise available from other companies.

[Euphistuba]

I certainly understand your point of view, and to a degree agree with it. But I still dont understand why its ok for Yamaha and others to copy Besson designs and they wind up a top tier maker. The deeper question for me is why cant USA firms compete?
Kanstul by the way did get some inside info as it concerns design as I understand it. But the issues they tout over alloys and the R&D behind it is a little misleading. I know of at least one other maker who did similar tests with similar results but doesnt choose to make any big deal about it.
Ill likely end up buying the Kanstul, because I want to support an American firm, they make a fine horn which are built to last but I think they could do better with the price of most of the instruments they make. The Compensation Euphonium is a good example......its a good horn, but not worth 5K.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I am amazed when folks are upset with 'clones' from China--I have not heard an uproar about a York Clone' YamaYork, a Nirschl York copy, a Hirsbrunner Grand Orchestral, a Holton 345, MW 2165, a Thein York copy, et al. And how about the rotary clones from Europe of the 186/Alexander--B&S/PT, Meinl Weston, Rudi, etc. etc. etc.

China is not going away nor are the Chinese instruments---just like Yamaha was when I was in High School and everybody said 'stay away from them' and years later when Jupiter first appeared and everybody said 'stay away from them' now we have Chinese instruments--and some are superb! They will only get better and better.

And as for the the stenciling of names on Jin Bao instruments (Dillon, JZ [BBC], M&M, Schiller [J. Laabs], Tuba Exchange [TE], etc.), it is just like when you had instruments that had 'stenciled names on them in both the 19th and 20th Century--John F. Stratton instruments stenciled J. Howard Foote, Oscar Coon, etc. and Conn/Martin instruments stenciled Bruno, Pan American, McClellan, etc. This is nothing new--it is just 'what goes around comes around...'

I have told by several musical importers that as for Chinese brass instruments, there are no 'exclusives' and/or 'exclusivity' per a certain model, so it's 'fair game' for all importers.

If you are strictly into 'Buy American' only I applaud you, but sadly, the choices are getting fewer, and fewer, and fewer--and our powers to be--in both political parties--just seem not to care but want 'free trade', and not 'fair trade.'

For what it is worth, I once attended a seminar here in Buffalo at our Federal Reserve Branch and the head of the NY Fed was here. He talked and then there was a Q/A. I asked a question to him re. fair trade--open trading, esp. with the loss of manufacturing jobs. He replied he loved NAFTA, CAFTA, open trading, etc. He said the manufacturing jobs lost would be made up with new industries created by open trading.
Oh, the person's name---the current Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geitner....

As I said earlier, China and their instruments aren't going away--get use to it..the 'Genie' is out of the bottle...

Regards-
mark

[bort]

Hi-
I am amazed when folks are upset with 'clones' from China--I have not heard an uproar about a York Clone' YamaYork, a Nirschl York copy, a Hirsbrunner Grand Orchestral, a Holton 345, MW 2165, a Thein York copy, et al. And how about the rotary clones from Europe of the 186/Alexander--B&S/PT, Meinl Weston, Rudi, etc. etc. etc.

For the Yorks, my same thought applies -- it's kind of open game since the "creator" manufacturer doesn't make them anymore. Plus, no one's business model revolves around making a York clone. For the 186's, I understand your point, and it's a gray area... but I believe these are all "a company's version of a..." instead "a company's direct copy of a..."

Competition is good for business, and good for growth. Maybe I'll come around to the Chinese clones, maybe I won't. Heh, but I guess in the end, accessibility to instruments could be increased, and a world with more tuba players isn't such a bad thing.

[Liberty Mo]

Are there any actual photos of someone with one of these instruments as opposed to the promo photos on ebay. It would be nice to get an idea of the scale and fit/finish from real photos....even better if someone had one next to the Miraphone.

[bort]

http://thevillagetinker.com/miraphone_1 ... _clone.htm" target="_blank

[Liberty Mo]

http://thevillagetinker.com/miraphone_1 ... _clone.htm" target="_blank

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. Very interesting observations. If I were in the market, it would be very tempting to play test a few of these and pick the best.

[iiipopes]

For those of us who play guitar or bass guitar, most of us started in garage bands by emulating our favorite artists and players covering the songs and learning how to play them exactly like the record. Right now, the Chinese are in that stage with tuba manufacturing.

Later on, the groups who persevere and who are lucky enough to have talent to take off learn to write their own songs, develop their own style, and make their way onto the charts in their own right. The other established manufacturers in the above posts have done that. The Chinese aren't there yet. Yamaha, arguably, has been there for about ten years or so, although at least for their tuba range there are still more elements of the instruments that inspired the line in the Yamaha designs rather than Yamaha's own development.

Just like the garage band who learns the songs well, but will never be anything but a garage band unless and until they take off in their own direction, the Chinese need to start to develop some original thinking and engineering into their instruments for them to really take off. Until then, they will be the garage band of music instruments: some really good, none of them original enough to form a following of their own.

[J.c. Sherman]

I believe the most copied tuba to be the King 1140.

There are copies of it made in Taiwan, America-Germany (Blessing), Czechoslovakia, and mainland China.

And I'm not fond of any of 'em

J.c.S.

[Michael Bush]

You cant hardly buy the case and shipping for $900.00 so please before you write comments check your facts

Not so. He isn't the one who needs to check his facts.

A. These horns are not all one with those they imitate. If the "real thing" is worth the price difference to you, you should definitely buy it. For example, if you really need to hear the exact pitch of that grace note, the response of the Jinbao may frustrate you. (Maybe not, though. It's more than possible that I'm not good enough to get a quick 32nd note to sound clearly no matter what horn I'm playing.)

B. For me as a forever-amateur community band tubist, neither a Hirsbrunner 192 nor a Miraphone 181 is six to eight times better than the Jinbaos that imitate them, but they cost about that many times as much as I have paid for the Jinbaos.

C. By paying M & M's price, you are getting a warranty. That's not to be despised. For the risk-averse, it may well be worth it. Since I'm not very risk averse, I don't know. If you're a betting man willing to take the risk of self-warranting (and perhaps getting an outright lemon) you can get these horns for a great deal less. I came out so well on the "Schillbrunner" that I sprung for the Jinbao F. This 181 semi-clone (it's not an exact duplicate, smaller bell for example) when all is said and done cost a little more to land in this country than what tubamlb says won't buy a case and shipping, plus a bit more to get it from the port to my door. It may cost me somewhat more beyond that in a tech's time to get it into satisfactory playing shape. But it's not going to come within shouting distance of $3700, to say nothing of the actual 181's price tag.

I'm excited about this CC. I started resisting learning to play a CC in 1982, because I never felt seriously limited by a BBb, which I already knew how to play. Old habits die hard, and I haven't changed my mind yet, but this has me thinking about it like nothing has before.

[Roger Lewis]

My experience has been that there are 3 levels of tubas:

1. Quality horns developed at great cost and manufactured with great precision.

2. Inexpensive horns that have been made as copies of the great horns and play well at a lower price point. They may not have the exact sound and feel of the high level instrument but will get the job done.

3. Tuba shaped objects that are slapped together poorly with an all profit/no quality mentality. They do not have a Western scale on them anywhere and no two notes are in any way related to each other.

For the record, I think that Michael at M&M is providing a very needed service during these financially challenging times, and he stands behind what he sells.

Just my observations.

Roger

[Dan Schultz]

I believe the most copied tuba to be the King 1140......

Of all the 'good' tubas out there... I cannot understand for the life of me why the Asians picked that particular horn to copy. That one ranks pretty close to the bottom of my 'favorite' list.... if it makes the list at all.

Copying the 1240/41 or the 2340/41 would be an entirely different matter.

[Lew]

Ok..... Im confused..... Its ok for Yamaha and others to base their designs on Besson, York and others.....but if a Chinese firm does it its Cloning which is bad? How many firms have based horns on York designs? Isnt the new Kanstul (over priced I think) nothing but a well done clone? ...

I didn't see anyone bashing M&M for making these, or cloning in general. I do think that there is a difference between copying the design of a current production model of anything vs. coming up with an original design. Still this is done for many different products. I don't see anything wrong with it, unless one tries to fake a logo and claim their product as the original, like fake Rolexes, many of which do come from China.

In this case there is a product selling for what seems to be a competitive price compared to alternatives and not claiming to be anything other than what it is. How this price compares to the cost of manufacturing and distribution is irrelevant. Pricing for anything is not based only on cost, but on the market. If people try them and like them and the price is good relative to alternatives, they will be successful. If the marketplace decides that these are not worth the price being asked, because of performance, durability, or some other reason, then they will not sell and the manufacturer will have to rethink their pricing strategy.

In any market there are those who come up with the new products to solve what consumers perceive to be problems with usability or reliability. In the case of tubas the main issues that companies play around with design to deal with seem to be intonation and sound qualities. Since we have many products which seem to provide what most people want in these qualities, it is reasonable for other companies to come in and try to provide similar products for a lower price to support different price points in the market.

I have had a long conversation with Tom Treece about them and, the Kanstul York is different not only in the way the accurately copied the dimensions of historic, no longer made instruments, but they did have a metallurgical analysis done to match the metal that was used in the old Yorks. You could call it a well done clone, but you can't buy a new J. W. York today. Whether they are better than buying an instrument based on a more modern design is up to the player I would think.

[UTSAtuba]

Here's the new ad. I emailed Michael, and he said the specs are correct. It looks like they upgraded some things from the older CC 5/4 piston (19" bell and .802" bore).

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tuba-CC-5-4-Size_W0 ... dZViewItem" target="_blank

[MartyNeilan]

I talked to a fellow who had played a prototype piston CC that was a decent horn with a smaller bell, who raved about how good the pistons were. Has anyone played THIS model?

[kanstulbrass]

Ok..... Im confused..... Its ok for Yamaha and others to base their designs on Besson, York and others.....but if a Chinese firm does it its Cloning which is bad? How many firms have based horns on York designs? Isnt the new Kanstul (over priced I think) nothing but a well done clone?
Before we start throwing around negative comments about horns....lets be realistic.
If I could buy a decently made well playing horn for even a third more than whats coming out of the Asian markets I would....but I cant. For reasons that are beyond me, American firms cant get their act together to produce a decent horn at a decent price. If this is a market driven economy.....and it is.....guys..... we are the market. It can be done, but profit is more important than the musical product.
Not to be overly cynical, but the music in schools movement, of which I suspect most of us are a product, was driven by the need of the music manufacturers to replace the lost revenue from the demise of touring pro bands and municipal bands.
Im on the fence myself about this very horn. I own a Shiller CC clone and its working for me. But I want a piston CC and I know that I can get a decent used one if I wait a little longer.....but who likes to wait right? Then again, the CC clone I have plays better than some of the very horns its made from, so whos to say this clone isnt actually an improvement over the very horn its based from? Sure the guys selling these things want to make money, and if it were in the high 2K range it would be more attractive to me. But it is what it is. Given the likely rise in prices of Chinese goods that are sure to come, this is a bargin, as are all the Asian horns right now.

Based on the rising cost of raw materials, the development of all-new tooling, R&D, marketing (including tradeshows, advertising), etc., we don't think that the Kanstul tubas are overpriced. We believe that we are bringing these to the market at a competitive price. A quality instrument in not cheap, and it should not be expected to be cheap.

Or as my dad used to say "you get what you pay for". =)

Charles