Public Opinion on military bands

[TubaRay]

Concerning the statement:
...former secretary of state "Condi Rice used to say, 'We have more people in military bands than they have in the Foreign Service.' She was not far wrong."

I would venture to say:
And this would be a bad thing? It is my opinion that the average military band member is doing far less damage to our country than the average foreign service (State Department) member.

I've gotta give you an "amen" for that brother TubaBobH.

[jamsav]

wow....what a sad day it would be ....I recently had the opportunity to play at the commencement at the USMMA , likely the smallest of all of our military academies , that I believe falls under the stewardship of the Department of Transportation , regardless, they have had a wonderful band there for years, and inspite of continuous budget cuts, this amateur ensemble , composed of cadets , manage , somehow, to keep a wonderful " espirit de corps ' while keeping there equipment working with bubble gum and duct tape . It was sad to see absolutely gorgeous B & H tubas , euphs. and hand painted field drums falling into disrepair thru lack of funds allocated for maintenance .
As hard as it is to not turn this thread into a political football, trimming the low lying fruit ( as someone had previously mentioned ) from a military budget, by reducing funds into the music programs is pure chicken **** ! But then again , band equipment manufacturers aint buying lunch for any of our congressman and senators.
I suspect if Bershire Hathaway or another defense contractor manufactured brass instruments, our infantry would be crawling around the middle east with trumpets and trombones on their backs !
Fearing suspension, but speaking the truth - Jim Savage

[1895King]

This has been going on for over 150 years. At the beginning of the Civil War, most regiments had bands. By the middle of 18692, the costs had risen so much that a special Congressional investigation was launched which resulted in a reduction in bands to Brigade rather than Regimental level.

[imperialbari]

Until 35 or 40 years ago the British army had battalion bands, some with drum corps associated, even if the drummers likely were fighting troops volunteering the drum job. I have specific memories about the 2nd Battalion Parachuters Band and the 2nd Battalion Light Infantry Band. The latter regiment had its bands marching at 140 beats/minute. To my knowledge there no longer are any parachuters or light infantry bands in the British army.

Klaus

[knarfman]

I suspect if Bershire Hathaway or another defense contractor manufactured brass instruments, our infantry would be crawling around the middle east with trumpets and trombones on their backs !

This sounds like the beginning of a new thread: if a typical defense contractor made tubas: (a) what would they look like? (b) what functions would they perform in addition to producing sounds? [example: potable water could come out of the water key; coffee if 1st valve is depressed] (c) how many people would be required to carry one? (d) how much would they cost? (well, maybe leave that last one off!).

--Frank

[jamsav]

4th valves launches a stinger missile ?

[JHardisk]

4th valves launches a stinger missile ?

I thought that's what the 4th valve was for? I've launched a few low D and G missles into the air. They're really more of a ground type ballistic missile, and only after the gig is over can you really see the damage to your colleagues, and hear stories of the carnage from the audience. (Back on topic).. You know.. the 10's of thousands of people I play for annually, who often come to us with tears in their eyes after a stirring rendition of a patriotic tune (Or, because of the damn missiles I'm firing!).

Truly this article was an attempt to get a shocked response from joe schmo public, utilizing skewed numbers and extremely loose details as "fact". What's disheartening, is if people actually agree with this guy's hollow vision.

I appreciate the responses... avoiding all politics is touchy, but possible.

[Wyvern]

In the UK cuts in the number of military bands has already taken place. An ex-army bandmaster told me in 1980 there were about 250 bands in the British military - now it is down to less than 25. Very sad indeed!

A lot of the gigs my band gets (The Band of the Hampshire Constabulary) were formerly played by full time military bands. We even frequently play at military bases which obviously no longer have their own band.

I hope cuts do not hit the US military bands like they have over here!

As far as public opinion - I don't think Jo public cares a toss - only musicians care.

[imperialbari]

In the UK cuts in the number of military bands has already taken place. An ex-army bandmaster told me in 1980 there were about 250 bands in the British military - now it is down to less than 25. Very sad indeed!

A lot of the gigs my band gets (The Band of the Hampshire Constabulary) were formerly played by full time military bands. We even frequently play at military bases which obviously no longer have their own band.

I hope cuts do not hit the US military bands like they have over here!

As far as public opinion - I don't think Jo public cares a toss - only musicians care.

Jonathan, one source back around 1980 told the number of British military bandsmen being around 5000, which would be less than 250 bands, as the regimental bands are about 33 players strong and the ceremonial bands for state acts have 45 or so players. The latter ones are the 5 guard regiments associated with Buckingham Palace shifts of guards (which takes 2 bands on rotating services every day). Also the two mounted bands have around 45 players.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Klaus, I am no expert on British military bands, but understood that some only numbered 19 players. At least a photo book I was lent on British military bands (by the bandmaster who told me) showed many only numbering around 20-25. Yes, the regimental and guards bands do number more.

I think I may have remembered the date wrong for when there were 250 bands - that was possibly earlier than 1980, but the worst cuts took place in the 1980's.

[imperialbari]

The information on the smaller bands is new to me. The battalion bands I remember were around the regimental bands of today. Even had an oboe player.

During the cold war almost every fall had large campaigns here, where NATO troops, especially the British ones, arrived in large scale landing maneuvers here in the harbour of my town. Often the troops were followed by bands. I remember a Yorkshire regiment marching 6 trombones abreast in the front row though our narrow streets. They used trumpets en lieu of cornets. I asked why and was told that was the preference of the bandmaster. I also remember a band of the territorial army (equivalent of US National Guards). It was a mismatch of uniforms because they had had to call in substitutes from all sorts of regiments. The one tubist was in black from an engineering regiment. He told they used Eb basses only "because you have to march those devils".

I haven’t seen it, only read about it in a paper from my boyhood town, that one regimental band split in 16 piece half-bands going to nursing homes and small rural schools.

My source for the number of 5000 in 1980 was the programme for a huge tattoo in my neigbour town, where colonel possibly from Kneller Hall was invited as the director of music.

One very costly tradition in the British military music system has had me wondering: despite the dwindling number of bands all 3 branches still keep their own schools of music. The Army has Kneller Hall, the marines have Portsmouth, and I don’t remember the seat of the RAF school, but is some provincial airbase.

Klaus

[knarfman]

One very costly tradition in the British military music system has had me wondering: despite the dwindling number of bands all 3 branches still keep their own schools of music. The Army has Kneller Hall, the marines have Portsmouth, and I don’t remember the seat of the RAF school, but is some provincial airbase.

This was the subject of a joke in the old BBC comedy show "Yes, Prime Minister" (reputedly one of Margaret Thatcher's favorites). In one episode, the Prime Minister was trying to cut military spending, and his political adviser suggested merging the military schools of music, commenting "There can hardly be a specifically Royal Naval method of playing bassoon".

--Frank

[Wyvern]

I don’t remember the seat of the RAF school, but is some provincial airbase

I believe Hendon

The different forces do have their own ways of doing things, such as differing marching commands. Having played under Army and Royal Marines conductors, I have also observed that the latter seem to like more bass.

Marching with compensating BBb's is very unpopular due to their weight and in many military bands they ONLY use Eb's on the march. At a country show, I saw a tubist use BBb on the bandstand and then switch to Eb for a marching display later. Obviously a lot of weight of tone is then lost and I 'was told' that using CC has been considered - but to use left facing tubas would need approval at the highest level - the Queen!!!
If that is true, I don't know?

[EdFirth]

I played in the 392nd Army Band at Ft. Lee from 1970-72 and the USMA Band at West Point from 1972-3.. It was a wonderful experience. That being said,the bands were mostly short timers at Ft. Lee and mabye half and half at West Point. The money was a pittance in comparison to what today's wages are due to the fact that there was a draft and they didn't need any financial incentives to get players. There were no women in the bands yet.There was a thriving market on the outside for players, compared to today at least so many just did their hitch and got uot. VOLAR(the volunteer Army) kind of changed all of that. Now the money is quite good and the market on the outside is sketchy at best. So the bands are now all what we used to call "lifers" who, without the milatary band job would be teachers playing in community bands and orchestras in many cases due to the slump in jobs.I loved doing the job and enjoy the occasional concert I hear but I, as are all of us here, am a tuba player and am predisposed to like concert band music. I also like steam trains, paddle wheel steamboats,three masted sailing ships, the Goldman Band and The City Service Band of America as well as Circus bands playing the music that was originally composed for the circus.But things do change and that's just the way it is. I think there will always be service bands. Just in a slightly different form. And, at least in the Army(my son is going in on Sept 20th) bandsmen only play in the bandPERIOD. I would just hope that when this comes to pass they let attrition make the cuts rather than cut anyone loose before they can retire.All the best to everyone.Sp5 Ed Firth

[imperialbari]

The different forces do have their own ways of doing things, such as differing marching commands. Having played under Army and Royal Marines conductors, I have also observed that the latter seem to like more bass.

When I spent the summer of 1964 in Gloucestershire there were TV transmissions from military shows/tattoos. There was an indoor show in a huge London arena (forgot the name of the hall, but the show was an annual event back then). I was told that the Marines were famous for their euphonium sound, whereas the RAF was strong in trombones.

A tuba player of the said parachuters band told that the combination of tubas and euphoniums soloing were bass solos, the euphs there only as reinforcement. The soloing by euphs and tenor saxes was a tenor solo.

This thread started as American, but the UK has the same sort of military band history. In my country the situation is even worse. In 1931 all bands but for the royal lifeguard, which had duty on shifts of guard, were abandoned. During WWII the bands were resurrected to boost the national spirit. Let last 50 years has seen band after band being chopped. Aside of the lifeguard we only have 2 small brass ensembles of 16 pieces each. They are in our western rural outback and in the border area with Germany, which so far has saved them, as the politicians are very sore about being accused of dis-favouring these areas.

My cynical point of view is that the musicians union killed at least two bands. The state salary system locked the income, but the union negotiated compensating through free hours, so that the players could do a lot of freelancing. This became the object of a paper feature, and then the bands were chopped.

Klaus

[TUBAD83]

This was a poorly written article--its obvious the writer did not understand how our military bands function HOWEVER a valid point was brought up.

Lets realize that we cannot sustain a trillion dollar military budget year after year--it is time to make some hard decisions now while we still have options. Every part of the military budget should be closely examined without exception.

As a former bandsman who was a supply and admin clerk, I know firsthand how the army goes through money--to say that its wasteful is a gross understatement. Not only is there NO incentive to save money but you are encouraged to overspend in order to get a bigger budget next fiscal year--VERY common practice and I suspect its still in full force today.

As far as the number of bands, lets have some serious honesty here--Does the army need so many "premier and special" bands?? Does the army NEED the Field Band? The Old Guard? The TRADOC band? Do these bands have to be so large? (I have performed major orchestral transcriptions with an ensemble of 45 with great results) Every army division band has a combat mission--they have to be able to "shoot,move, and communicate"--that makes them a more valuable asset. Some garrison bands have to be crosstrained, but I think most do not. Perhaps that should be required of ALL bandsmen regardless of status. You wear the uniform, you LOOK like a soldier, you should be TRAINED as a soldier.

JJ

[Wyvern]

Perhaps that should be required of ALL bandsmen regardless of status. You wear the uniform, you LOOK like a soldier, you should be TRAINED as a soldier.

Such cross training is the norm this side of the pond. British military bandsmen have to do combat tours to Afghanistan just like the rest - even the elite Guards bands.

[BVD Press]

In case anyone is wondering about possible other duties band members perform, it does not mention it in the article below about Gulf cleanup but Jonathan happens to be in the US Coast Guard Band:

http://blog.al.com/live/2010/08/hunt_fo ... _insh.html

I am not sure on the exact number, but about 20% of the band went down to help with the cleanup effort...

Band info:

http://www.uscg.mil/band/

[bort]

Misdoc, the whole time I'm reading your post I'm thinking that ALL of the bands would fall under the DoD budget, right? (correct me if I'm wrong, please!) If so, the DoD budget has (or had better have!) nothing to do with healthcare, stimulus funds, or unemployment benefits. There should be executive-level oversight of the DoD budget and to make sure they aren't reckless... but really they are separate issues on grossly different scales.

I'm sure something will get cut. Maybe budgets. Maybe bands or personnel. And maybe there is even some waste in the band program that *can* be cut. But if it does, I'm sure they will adapt and move on. We're Americans, when things get tough we learn to do more with less, right?

[Eupher6]

Like several posters in this very interesting thread, I made a career making music in the Army and found that grossly inaccurate and misleading article to be infuriating and ridiculous on its face.

I'll speak about the Army, because it's where I spent my time and it's what I know. I'm even somewhat current, even though I retired not quite 16 years ago.

Army bands are HALF the number they were when the inevitable cuts happened after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. There has been so much cutting and chopping going on with the axes and chain saws that they couldn't hear what to cut during Congress' BRAC talks.

The "premier" bands were the focus of the article. While the premier bands enjoy that status for good reason, the rest of the service bands "in the field" and "in the fleet" provide critical missions that are geared toward some very important things that the Soldier serving in Afghanistan and, until recently, Iraq, needed just to keep one foot going in front of the other.

Bands, and performing units of bands, have a function for the commander that no other element can bring to the battlefield short of wine and women -- and we know that both of those are dangerous when mixed.

You'll find very few general/flag officers that scream, "Take away my band! I don't need the damned thing after all!"

Getting back to premier bands, i.e., the Army Band, the Marine Band, the Navy Band, and the Air Force Band, the primary function of these bands is to service Washington D.C. That's their mission. And there's plenty to do. Other premier bands serve their academy or take the music to America (the Field Band). What this kind of work does is to recruit for the services and to instill some of that esprit that most of us who have served in uniform at one time or another have felt.

While bands are not allowed to be used in a political setting, let's not be naive and think that politics aren't part and parcel of the reason bands are used in civilian settings. Bands bring elements of pomp, dignity, and pizzazz to most any setting and all of this is important for the communities at large.

You know what I'm talking about when you play a gig in Podunkville, Arkansas, and pull up the Armed Forces Medley. The announcer requests that those who have served stand when their service "song" is played and you rarely find a dry eye in the place after that piece goes back in the folder.

Cutting bands beyond their current numbers will negatively impact those who are deployed in harms' way, military recruiting, and chip away at that thing called "Americana". Can it be done? Of course it can -- just like getting a handle on the sheer amount of fraud, waste, and abuse that goes on throughout bureaucracies of all types, right?

No, the fact is, military bands are an easy target. Going after entrenched military contractors selling $600 toilet seats is a far tougher enterprise. Just ask Don Rumsfeld how well he did with that.

Must. Avoid. Any. Further. Statement. About. The. Current. Administration. aaaargh!!