The Conn Jumbo Sousaphone

[Roger Fjeldet]

After a troublesome period trying to ship the Jumbo from Canada to Norway it finally arrived (in Sweden)
I`ve been doing parts om my daily warm-ups on the instrument in a couple of weeks, and I am really impressed by the sound - pure bass!!!
Of course it`s heavy - I have marks on both shoulder and leg - but a period with upper body work-outs could be needed anyway.
The intonation is surprisingly good, and it`s a high pitch instruments so I`ll get no problem with modern tuning.
The only negative I could say about this Jumbo is that I wish it had 4 valves - it`s a 46K (1923) - and I would love to hear the lower register on this monster
Still looking for a Chief or a Conn 1 mouthpiece.
Alway looking for a 4-valve version
Roger

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Roger,

If you think it's heavy now, wait until you add a 4th valve to the equation!

Seriously though, have you investigated the "false tones" below the low E? I would imagine that they are pretty strong, on that horn.

[Dan Schultz]

.... If you think it's heavy now, wait until you add a 4th valve to the equation! ....

Surprisingly... that fourth valve only adds a couple of pounds to the horn. After an hour or two on ones shoulder... the horn FEELS much heavier than it actually is.... About forty-six pounds according to my bathroom scales. If I had a steady stage gig where I could simply leave my 'Jumbo' on a stand, I would play it all the time. As it is, it only gets out of the house a couple of times a year.

[pjv]

Four valves, it is convenient, certainly. All my horns have them except for my jumbo. Fortunately you can pull the 1st valve slide. As for notes below low E; honestly, how many times a year has anyone of us ben asked to play anything below low E?
Sure, if your playing modern music, studio gigs, or musicals (Lion King) then you'll need it. But then you probably would't be bringing your jumbo.
I'd say, enjoy NOT having the resistance one gets when playing through one more extra valve (let alone two or three).

Congrats with new jumbo. Now there are at least two in europe!

-Pat

[Roger Fjeldet]

You`ve probably right about not needing the 4th valve when I`m at work, but I always use my biggest horn for the daily warm-ups routines - and THERE I need the whole register
Now about the intonation on the Jumbo; I do not find this troublesome at all. I use among others a Melton Cc 6/4 (2165 I think it`s numbered) - and on this instrument we can really talk about bad intonation
I will post some pictures when the instrument has been polished
Roger

[iiipopes]

YOU DON'T NEED A 4TH VALVE!

Have the upper loop of the 1st valve circuit converted to a movable slide to be worked by the left hand, just like a regular tuba, and all of the intonation issues go away. Set 3 long so that 2+3 is in tune, which is probably is already that way, or at least really close, and "ride throttle" on the 1st valve upper loop just like you do any other tuba. Low "false pedal" open Eb should be so smooth you really can't tell that it is a "false pedal," and go down from there to true pedal BBb.

[Roger Fjeldet]

I have just experienced this "false pedalnotes" after a mail from mammoth2ba
Funny I`ve never heard of this before
And more funny: It worked!!

Roger

[Roger Fjeldet]

I have`nt had the Jumbo long enough to decide what mouthpiece i feel suit best, but right now I`m using a PT88.
I got a Conn 2 from Dan Schultz which I`m going to try over a longer period, and I am looking for a Conn 1 or a Chief
Roger

[Wyvern]

I have just experienced this "false pedalnotes" after a mail from mammoth2ba
Funny I`ve never heard of this before
And more funny: It worked!!

False tones do seem to be an American idea, little known, or used in Europe. I also had never heard of them before joining TubeNet.

[pjv]

False tones, nice to have them, good for the air, practice, and an occasionally on stage. But let there be no mistake; its not the same. I own a 3v Jumbo, but in 4v's a 36J, a 40K and a monster. The difference is in the weight of the note. Playing a low note "real" has much more body in the sound. Logical.

Having said this, the false notes do resinate and can produce a hefty sound. Personally I don't think theres anyone in the audience thats gonna scratch their head and say "hey, you know that low eighth note D that guy just played? Sounded like a false note. It would've sounded better with a fourth valve!"

And thats the real point isn't it. Extra valves are tools, just like tunable slides, AGR's and monster capes. The right tool for the right job. Extra valves are great if you use your lower register a lot. They can also provide some intonation solutions that otherwise would have to be resolved with a slide pull. The price you pay is more resistance.

Buy a bigger fridge w/ice machine because it'll make your life easier. Because you feel you "need it" and it'll make you happy. Not because everybody on the block has one.

-Pat

[Dan Schultz]

....... Extra valves are tools, just like tunable slides, AGR's and monster capes. The right tool for the right job. Extra valves are great if you use your lower register a lot. They can also provide some intonation solutions that otherwise would have to be resolved with a slide pull. The price you pay is more resistance......

True.

However.... I have a slightly different (and probably wrong) 'take' on the use of 4th and 5th valves. I've gotten so used to four and five valves horns that I feel like I'm having to learn a different set of fingerings when I have to 'play-test' and three valved horn.

I've come to my own conclusion that the less valves you have to use to produce and in-tune note the better off you are. Simply because there is less resistance when using the 4th in place of 1 and 3. I like my 5th valve set to the 2 - 3 combination to rid of sometimes unstable Db and F# below the staff. 2 and 4 replaces 1, 2, and 3.

The 'how low can you go' theory makes about as much sense to me as those blasted trumpet players with their 'louder and higher' theory.

[iiipopes]

With due respect, I beg to differ with the term "resistance." Brass instruments work on static wave theory, not flow theory. What is perceived as "resistance" is actually a discontinuity where a node or antinode may focus, causing dissipation. This can be a leak, a tight slide bend, a solder joint or ferrule in the wrong place, or whatever. Adding tubing means adding more bracing, more turns in the tubing, more of everything. In turn, all the additions increase the chance of something getting in the way of a node or antinode. With the dissipation, more energy is then required to get the note to "speak," and that is what we interpret as stuffiness. Now, if the term "resistance" is used in the same way, then I'm in agreement.

[pjv]

Stuffiness is good. Being comfortable with 5 valves is a good reason to stick with it. And indeed on many horns a 1-3 combi does blow a bit tighter than just the 4th.

I only want to stress the fact that what we "need" is individual. Tubists should be wary of "needing" something just 'cause everyones got it. Really thinking about "why" everyones got it (whatever that may be) is whats important. Developments are exactly that; developments. Changes. Quite often they are also improvements. But not always for everyone and not always for all situations.

We tubists have an incredible variety of horns to choose from. When I grew up in Calif. it had to be a Miraphone CC 186 5v because thats what everyone was playing. I feel I missed out on the beautiful history of tubas because of my (self)imprinted idea that to be a tubist my horn had to be a Miraphone CC 186 5v!

When I came to holland and did my very first orchestra subbing I came in with my Miraphone CC 186 5v. It was good enough for Roger and Tommy and Jim (well, at least until the 188 came out) so its gotta be good enough out here, right? Well, the bass trombonist took one look at me & my horn, looked back at his colleagues and said; "this isn't gonna fly". OK, everyone in holland played a silver Hirsbrunner CC, but I didn't think.....WRONG.

Now a lot has changed since then, and indeed I didn't fly (for various reasons), but still. Many players make decisions based on what the group decides. Also OK, but as long as I'm footing the bill for a new horn, I like to think twice before I make an investment.

-Pat

[Steve Marcus]

False tones, nice to have them, good for the air, practice, and an occasionally on stage. But let there be no mistake; its not the same. I own a 3v Jumbo, but in 4v's a 36J, a 40K and a monster. The difference is in the weight of the note. Playing a low note "real" has much more body in the sound. Logical.

Having said this, the false notes do resinate and can produce a hefty sound. Personally I don't think theres anyone in the audience thats gonna scratch their head and say "hey, you know that low eighth note D that guy just played? Sounded like a false note. It would've sounded better with a fourth valve!"

And thats the real point isn't it. Extra valves are tools, just like tunable slides, AGR's and monster capes. The right tool for the right job. Extra valves are great if you use your lower register a lot. They can also provide some intonation solutions that otherwise would have to be resolved with a slide pull.

-Pat

I've tried to stay "under the radar" about this, but this topic just begs me to submit a post.

I love playing my recently acquired 48K. The 47 pounds on my shoulder are quickly forgotten when I am transported to another world by the horn's majestic, room-filling warmth and rich tone. It plays and speaks so easily. The two Dixieland bands with which I have played gigs love the sound of the 48K (and one of the bandleaders finds the size of the horn an attraction for audiences). Even standing up on the last chorus is not a big deal, but it adds to the "showmanship" of the band.

Although the false tones do speak very easily, it is a definite advantage to have the 4th valve. Playing a tune in Ab Major offers a choice of an easy I-V-I pattern for the occasional phrase when I wish to play that low. It sounds and feels smoother than using the false tone for the Eb. More choices are immediately available to the player when playing 4-to-the bar. There are many other times when the 4th valve is a convenience or facilitates a passage with moving notes.

WARNING: BORDERLINE RIDICULOUS CONTENT FOLLOWS: Yes, it is possible to play genuine pedal notes Eb and lower. But there's little if any use for them save Encounters II; a sousaphone is probably not what William Kraft or Roger Bobo had in mind when this piece was composed. OTOH, playing pedal notes with fingering 1-3-4 or 1-2-3-4 does produce something that may indeed be the CCCC written in the score; I haven't checked it with a tuner. Also, the high range speaks surprisingly well with this horn; with the proper mpc and practice, the Bb above the staff is readily available. Multiphonics are a breeze on this big horn (pun intended).

All of this is FWIW. Bottom line (pun again intended) is that the 4-valve Jumbo sousaphone is a joy to play.

[Dan Schultz]

With due respect, I beg to differ with the term "resistance." .....

I don't know what else it could be called. Just for 'grins'... blow just air through your horn with no valves depressed. Then.... with one valve depressed.... then with two.... then with three.... etc & so on. Surely you can feel a difference.

I know what you are saying about the air inside a horn is just the 'carrier' for the sound wave... but there HAS to be something with resistance.

[iiipopes]

No, it doesn't. The resistance from blowing air through the horn (as for emptying water) has no bearing on the actual playing of the horn. A misguided experiment was done years ago about how long it would take for smoke to go through a horn. Everyone expected it to blow right through. But it didn't. It was quite some time before the first whisps were apparent. No, it's not flow. Just look at a bobber when fishing on a lake, or a buoy. It doesn't flow with the waves, it bobs up and down relatively stable. Brass playing is the same thing, just with air compressions and rarefactions instead of water. Yes, just as with the bobber or buoy there will eventually be some residual motion from the residual current from wherever the lake is fed, or wind acting directly on the buoy, air does flow somewhat through the instrument, as it does have to go somewhere, but it is not the primary cause of tone. In normal playing, once the air clears the throat of the mouthpiece and expands into the leadpipe, velocity drops to effectively zero. It's no different than the velocity of a river current dropping to effectively zero when it enters a lake or the ocean, as demonstrated by the classic "delta" of deposited silt.

Now, there are those makers who will espouse and tout the benefits of a "graduated bore" through their block, but it's not for resistance, it's for maintaining conicity and darkness of tone. Some of the classic tubas, including I believe even the CSO Yorks, actually have a slightly smaller diameter to the 4th valve section, not larger.

[SousaSaver]

The resistance from blowing air through the horn (as for emptying water) has no bearing on the actual playing of the horn.

In my humble opinion, resistance is incredibly important especially when there is none. If you have ever played a Tuba with a bad leak or worn out valves this is especially true. The medium for the sound wave is the most important factor, the strength of the wave is lost through air leakage.

Too much resistance, as in an obstruction or a poor design is a bad thing. Too little resistance, such as a leak or poor design is a bad thing.

In short, I think that iiipopes and TubaTinker are both right. "Resistance," however you may define that, is a factor in playing, but iiipopes is correct in his observation about wave compressions.

[Gongadin]

Congratulations, Roger! Play it well...and really looking forward to a video!

[iiipopes]

What a leak or obstruction does is disrupt an antinode. Go read Schilke's research on the subject, as well as Nick Drozdoff's (1st call NY trumpet player, MF alum, and physics teacher) website and videos that demonstrate how sound really works. It has nothing to do with resistance or flow. I've played both: instruments with leaky tubing and worn valves. Fix the leak or seal up the valves, whether by thicker valve oil or a valve job, and the disruption to the antinode is removed and the note speaks. I stand by my posts.

The only "resistance" is two-fold: 1) the throat of the mouthpiece transitioning to the leadpipe (see Schilke's extensive research on mouthpiece "gap") and 2) the overall efficiency of the horn resonating pitch, known in physics terminology as mechanical impedance. This actually involves a more complex analysis of the design of the entire horn from receiver to bell flare, and the propagation of the terminal node just beyond the bell, and way beyond this thread.

[windshieldbug]

I propose that both sides are correct.

Yes, I know that what you are doing is setting up a standing wave. I did my own anecdotal "smoke" tests years ago to try to visualize the actual airflow speed and volume.

-but-

Even though the airflow is small (or the accepting volume is huge), there is some. I assert that what one feels as "resistance" is the effect of the horn on one's embouchure. The airflow THERE is disrupted if the appropriate frequency is not "locked" in [Including leaks at nodes. The horn can leak in other places and have little or no effect on the production of a note, but THAT note only]. The stronger one's chops, the more the ability to sustain a particular buzz frequency (also known as the ability to blow THROUGH a note). Years ago brass players focused more on the ability to buzz an in-tune note and much less on the adjustment of instrument length.

How about let's tap gloves and come out playing?