Symphony Fantastique Question

[UDELBR]

thinking musical decisions have to recognize the context of the audience as well as the context of the ink

In that case, slap on a disco beat and everyone'll be much happier.

[J.c. Sherman]

thinking musical decisions have to recognize the context of the audience as well as the context of the ink

In that case, slap on a disco beat and everyone'll be much happier.

Rick, as usual, you are correct. And as you noted, the serpent reference is lost on the audience, if not 90% of the orchestra as well. That said, Berlioz was... twisting the plainsong accompaniment role of the serpent into a feral, terrifying chant of the artist’s damnation. Which, as noted above, could be made with Cimbasso, Organ (interesting thought, the more I think it)... or a BAT. Context matters, and certainly the modern 110 piece orchestra may have the decibels of a 400 person group from the 19th century... but there might be something missing... Namely 390 players

My frequent defense of the ophicleide usually comes down to making sure there is a considered decision when replacing the ophicleide with the tuba, as the instruments really are very different. It is expeditious to make the replacement, but are we always sure it’s the right decision? I think rarely so, but I’m weird. Other’s think not. Neither of us is right (except me (kidding)), but we should always, no matter what the instrument in our hands, practice historically informed performance, as its opposite is ignorant performance. Tubists are far above that

Context for me usually leans toward the audience, especially as program notes do so much to drag the audience into the setting of the work. The use of ophicleides, as I've noted, to me is a novel sound, not really an "old" sound to our ears because we rarely hear it. And it suits the composer's interests, which I usually put above my own... until I play a Bach flute partita on the tuba, of course.

All the entries in this dialogue have one thing in common - tuba players are a smart, learned bunch!

J.c. (the hypocrite from hell)

[JB]

certainly the modern 110 piece orchestra may have the decibels of a 400 person group from the 19th century... but there might be something missing... Namely 390 players

400 - 110 = 390?

tuba players are a smart, learned bunch!

[windshieldbug]

certainly the modern 110 piece orchestra may have the decibels of a 400 person group from the 19th century... but there might be something missing... Namely 390 players

400 - 110 = 390?

390 at the ORIGINAL pitch...

[JB]

certainly the modern 110 piece orchestra may have the decibels of a 400 person group from the 19th century... but there might be something missing... Namely 390 players

400 - 110 = 390?

390 at the ORIGINAL pitch...

[tubatom91]

290.

[J.c. Sherman]

You got me... must've been drinking.

J.c.S.

[luke_hollis]

I think if Berlioz had a modern day tuba when he wrote Symphony Fantastique, he would have only written a single tuba part. 2 parts is one too many.

[J.c. Sherman]

I think if Berlioz had a modern day tuba when he wrote Symphony Fantastique, he would have only written a single tuba part. 2 parts is one too many.

What do you mean by modern day? That encompasses a WIDE spectrum of instruments, sizes and timbres. And the contemporary Bombardon was similar in many respects to modern tubas… and he didn’t use it for this work in later revisions

Mr. Contrarian

[Wyvern]

Did not Berlioz change the parts to Tuba?

Tuba, rather than Ophicleide is what is marked on the music I have!

On the need for Tuba 2 - are the sections different from Tuba 1 (such as 86 to the end) covered elsewhere in the orchestra?

[J.c. Sherman]

Nope, never. And in most editions with ophicleide, the printer/publisher replaced that language with "tuba" throughout the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Can't really blame them; ophicleide was almost a bad word in that period (and remains to this day) due to some really amazing marketing.

Berlioz did embrace the tuba for some works, and allowed some parts to be played on tuba later in his life (such as the 2nd ophicleide part to this work). But never liked it on its own w/o ophicleide, and never scored the tuba without the ophicleide there too. The tuba isn't a blending instrument with the other instruments, then or now. The ophicleide largely is, as Berlioz and Verdi and many others recognized. The tuba is a great supporting instrument with a powerful low range, something the ophicleide lacks (as does Bass Clarinet vs. Bass Saxophone).

Boy this gets much more intense I'm going to have to start showing references. But if you think about it, the ophicleide at Beriloz's death was still relatively novel still, though being rapidly expunged. But the ophicleide was really embraced very quickly and for good reason - it was a winner! Part of that success is due to Berlioz himself.

But as many Kalmas part users and buyers can attest, a published page isn't any sort of truth... and the Symphonie is much the same. Hell, the Pines of Rome's part is marked for tuba and the score says Contrabass trombone (in some editions). Which is right? (Chances are, the cylindrical instruments are solely used onstage and conicals offstage).

J.c.S. (lunatic)

[Mark]

You know, if I could find it, I'd post the standard picture of the bier-garten maidens.

[tubatom91]

perfect picture for a french piece of Music

[TubaRay]

perfect picture for a french piece of Music

Let me rework that quote: "perfect picture" Never mind the rest of your quote. I feel rather certain you will agree.

[windshieldbug]

Ophécleide à trois

[Wyvern]

This is a more appropriate image for this subject. The lady who inspired Symphonie Fantastique

[bort]

This is a more appropriate image for this subject. The lady who inspired Symphonie Fantastique

Sultry.

[Wyvern]

I am selling CD recording of Symphonie Fanstatique with two ophicleides for anyone interested in hearing the difference.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 671283383&

Personally I prefer a recording I have with the Vienna Philharmonic/Gergiev presumably using F tubas, but that is just me.

[J.c. Sherman]

Good recording! Also check out the John Eliot Gardiner recording - very different but very cool too!

J.c.S.