Yamaha 621 F Tuba Intonation Questions

[cwarren]

Hello all,

I am currently playing on a YFB-621. Anyone that has any information on the intonation tendencies of this horn would be of great help. I am having a hard time fine tuning a few notes on the horn (namely A natural in the staff, B in the staff, Ab in the staff).

Thanks,

Cameron Warren

[cwarren]

Thanks for the help! I will certainly work on this.

[djwesp]

Cam,

I think these horns are really tight. I played on tubabob's for a few months prior to my Daniel in The Lion's Den performance.

I found that the biggest issue for me is that they are, tight, not tight as in "cool" but just in the flexibility on pitch. The horn is kind of smaller and doesn't graduate until later in the horn. This means that the horn pulls, really hard, towards the piped pitch. Compound this with how big the CC you are currently playing is and it may be a big change in managing it.

Some bai lin studies and schwarma really cleaned it up. The schwarma was especially helpful, but I did have to play a long 3 on a lot of the 12 combinations. I don't like to monkey arm the 1st valve slide so I just used the 3rd valve as the flat 12.

[cwarren]

Wes,

Thanks for the advice, man. After going through and tuning every pitch earlier, I think thats what I've found to be easier: Pull a long 3 instead of trying to monkey through the tubing on the first valve pull. That's an awkward slide to manipulate. I really have noticed the tuning to be "tight" as you've said. That describes it perfectly. I will definitely have to try the studies out and see what I can get out of it.

Hope you're doing well!

Cameron

[MartyNeilan]

Slides on this horn are hard to get to - put a ring on the SIDE of the 1st valve crook, and you can put your index or middle finger in that ring while you hold the side bow of the horn.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I put a ring on both the 1st & 3rd slides, of my YCB-621 CC tuba. They work great.

[tclements]

I've been playing a 621 for years. I think the intonation is spot on on mine; with THESE corrections:

I have a hook on my first valve slide.
I pull it for d (3rd line) and a (1st space) in the staff
4th space g, the first slide has to be in.
I pull the 5th slide for low Bb (4&5) and low G (2345)

[PaulTkachenko]

I'm finding low Bb works better 124 for me on this tuba. 45 seems too sharp.

Anyone else find this?

I'm still in the 'orientation' stage with this tuba, so really keen to find out other people's experience to save me the trouble ...

[tclements]

I pull the 5th slide a tad when I have to nail that note.

[PaulTkachenko]

I guess that's my point - doesn't 124 work better for a low Bb than 45 (which seems to blow a little sharp on my tuba).

Obviously we all need to do what works best for us individually, but it's useful to know what works for others.

[MartyNeilan]

Always used 124 for the low Bb, with the 1st slide pushed in (see my earlier post about the ring on the side of the 1st slide.)

[PaulTkachenko]

Good to know Marty - when do you pull the first slide? Not only for what note, but (as I'm finding) in which (broadly speaking) keys (ie is the note the fifth of the chord etc).

[Bob Kolada]

If 5-4 is sharp, why not tune 5 so that it's in tune? On 5 valve horns I always tune 5 for 5-4; if one of the 5-2-3's works great, if not I play 2-4 and pull one of the two.

[J.c. Sherman]

As I'm always the contrarian... especially as the only one on the list openly admitting he's a bass tubist first...

The 621 is VERY "conical"; the bore is graduated and the plumbing makes a very rapid expansion after the 4th valve. As such, I find the intonation very flexible. I've been through two periods on 621s... with a shallow mouthpiece and a deep mouthpiece. On both, while making a very great change in my sound approach, the intonation has always struck me as superb. I set mine with 4 out 1/2 inch; 2 out 3/8ths; 1 and 3 about 5/8ths out, and 5 about 1/2 out. I almost never pull anything except in a chord or moment when something is haywire (sharp horns on "Jaws", recently, for instance) or an exposed middle A when the celli/bassi were in disagreement with anything I've ever heard! Also, I might pull 5th for low G on occasion (2345). All of these are not necessary, but sometimes make for less work. Rarely use 235 for low B; sometimes pull 4 for F#, but almost never, esp. with a piano. With a piano, I don't need to touch anything and just hold the horn with my left hand.

Only a few special (and for F, totally normal for me) fingerings, all optional.

upper F#, 123; Upper G, 1&3, upper A 1&2 (top line). Lower octave is normal, save my gradual movement lately to use 3 on the bottom space A. 124 is grotesquely flat for Bb IMHO. 4-5 works fine; G on bottom line I may play 1&3 at times, but usually 4.

Try a Helleberg style mouthpiece... the extreme top end falls by a couple cents, but nothing beyond adjustment. I've been using a Faxx Helleberg, but I'm starting to really like the Yamaha CB. Remember, these are cut from a horn designed to work with Chuckl Daellenbach's Helleberg, and the Yamaha CB fits the receiver ideally.

J.c.S.

[PaulTkachenko]

Thanks guys, this is all gold dust.

Still keen to know when the first is pulled as I think that might be a bit of a key thing for me. I see on the tuba that the first slide has worn lacquer, suggesting thay it has been tugged regularly. Trying to save time and embarrassment on gigs by finding out quickly when that might be.

I seem to be able to handle the horn with a piano, but I'm noticing that not all keys are equal on this tuba, which (as a trombone doubler used to sharpening my leading notes etc) is nice.

[Rick Denney]

As I'm always the contrarian...

Not the only one. Your description fits my experience exactly. I have also used deep mouthpieces, but I like the sound I get better with the shallow Blokepiece Solo. It has no effect on the intonation. I've played that instruments in many groups and many settings, and always have gotten compliments on how well it fits with the group, and that includes intonation.

My only complaint with the 621 is that there is a volume point beyond which it will not go without turning trombone-like. I have a fine 6-valve B&S that is a much bigger instrument. But the B&S, in return for that characteristic sound and ability to balance a large ensemble, is more demanding to play. I remember bringing it to a quintet after having not played it for a month or so (it was a summer thing), and during warmup I had to spend some time cementing pitches in my brain again. As I explained it to one of the trumpet players (the good one), the B&S has excellent intonation, as long as I do. The Yamaha is more point-n-shoot.

I've heard people talk about the terrible intonation of 621 F tubas, and yet I can pick mine up after a long time, blow through the center of the note, glance up at the tuner, and the needle will be centered, give or take fewer than five cents. It's just that easy. The only note I have to sometimes pay attention to is the G at the top of the staff. The 5th partial can tend flat if I'm not paying attention--just as Mr. Sherman described. I've also heard complaints about ergonomics, but even at a time when I was playing mine in public every weekend, I never felt like I had to contort myself to hold it, and I always played that instrument while standing.

Rick "who sets up the slides similarly and rarely touches them after that except to empty water (every 30 seconds, it seems like) out of the first and second valve slides" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Still keen to know when the first is pulled as I think that might be a bit of a key thing for me. I see on the tuba that the first slide has worn lacquer, suggesting thay it has been tugged regularly. Trying to save time and embarrassment on gigs by finding out quickly when that might be.

Your ear (and as a backup your tuner) will be your best friend on that. I kept my 1st out a little ways (been way too long since I had the horn to remember exactly how much) and pushed it all the way in on 5th partial G when I didn't want to play it with 4, and pushed it all the way in on low Bb played 124. Otherwise it stayed out. That was the extent of my slide manipulation on that tuba. The near-pedal register was very bendable due to the amount of extra tubing engaged; I could play low G 1345 lipped up (and first pushed in) or 2345 lipped down, although I do like the idea of pulling 5 for that note.
This is NOT a tuba you have to play "trombone" with the slides. I used a slightly bored out C4 as the solo mouthpiece and a modified Conn 2 as the quintet/small ensemble mouthpiece. I am thinking a Blokepiece solo #1 would approximate the former and a Blokepiece imperial or maybe a Floyd Cooley helleberg would be close to the latter.
If you are running into a lot of pitch issues, try pulling your main slide out more. Most people who play these horns have the main slide w-a-y out. I think The Elephant actually lengthened his horn to overcome that.
I do miss mine in some ways, and am considering as a long term project rebuilding my little .656 top action Lyon and Healy Eb into a .689 front action piston horn to approximate the 3/4 Eb that Yamaha never built (and with a little more "character" to the sound, too.)

[PaulTkachenko]

No particular problems with tuning, these are pretty subtle things ... just appreciative to know others' experiences.

[J.c. Sherman]

In response to Rick, I have to say that these things are steroidal midgets... they have OODLES of power available, and with the right jaw/embouchure set, almost cannot crack. It's sonically violently different from a German F, but similar to the mighty mo British Fs. You can put a grillion joules through 'em without distortion... But it does take some additional effort on the face to hold it together compared to an Alex or like.

J.c.S. (who thinks his lacquered version has a few more newtons than the silver one's he's tried)

[Rick Denney]

In response to Rick, I have to say that these things are steroidal midgets... they have OODLES of power available, and with the right jaw/embouchure set, almost cannot crack.

I guess I don't take the right steroids.

Rick "who had trouble getting the 621 to punch through a concert band playing too loudly" Denney