Old Martin E flat

[opus37]

I have a Martin Band Instrument Co. E flat. Based on the serial number, it was made in 1910 or there about. (0.68 bore, 19 inch bell, 3 valves) It plays well, but has some issues. My repair person says it needs an ultrasonic cleaning and the valve corks and felts replaced. It may need a new lead pipe and a valve job. That leads me to my question. Since lead pipes are tapered, where would I find a lead pipe?

[iiipopes]

PIX! WE WANT PIX!

As far as a leadpipe, is it a straight-into-the-valve-block design, or the big-loop-with-water-key-before-going-into-the-block?

[UTSAtuba]

I'm positive it goes straight to the valve section. I recently sold my Martin Monster Eb FA-3. Great intonation, wonderful sound. Slides worked better than my VMI 3301.

Joseph

[opus37]

Here is the picture. The serial number is 8503. The bell in 19 inches in diameter and the height is 32 inches. The lead pipe is 11 inches. With a little silver polish, it shines like it is new.

[SousaSaver]

The valve job may or may not be necessary depending on the usage of the horn throughout its lifetime. If you cannot afford a valve job (in my humble opinion the cost of a valve job might exceed the value of this piece, but that would ultimately for you to decide) you can use a heavier valve oil to help seal the pistons, like Hetman Classic Piston.

The mouth pipe should be an easy replacement. Your repair tech can fit a universal pipe to your horn IF you need one. If there are no holes in your lead pipe, leave it alone for now. You can get a thin silicone sheet from a hobby store and roll it to fit into the first piston casing to seal where the mouth pipe enters. You can then suck on the mouthpiece end of the mouthpipe to see if it seals.

Good luck to you!

[opus37]

At your suggestion, I tested the lead pipe for leaks. There were none. My repair person said she will look at it with a borescope, but it likely will not need the lead pipe. I'm going to do the cleaning and replace the felts and corks. There are a few small dents to be taken out and some soldering to be done. All of that work will cost me about $300. If the valves need re-plating, I'll likely do that too, even if the value of the horn is less than to cost of the work. I bought the horn for $20 over 30 years ago. It meets my playing needs and like someone said on this net, a tuba finds you. This one found me. Like old cars, it's seldom about the money, it's taking care of an old friend. Thank you for the tips about checking the lead pipe and the heavier valve old.

[iiipopes]

Great looking tuba! Thanks.

Instead of getting the valves replated right now, try this: take a 1-ounce bottle of conventional valve oil, like Al Cass, Roche-Thomas, etc., and with a medicine dropper put a drop or two of pharmaceutical grade mineral oil in it. Shake to disperse. Try the mixture on the valves. It should help intonation. If it doesn't, add another drop and repeat. At some point, it will seal the valves. One drop too many, and yes, you might get a little bit of slowing of the valves from the increased viscosity, which can be reversed, of course, by just adding back some of the valve oil back down to the viscosity that gives the best balance of sealing the valves verses slowing them down. I've done this with great advantage on horns with worn valves, and of course, a small bottle of valve oil, a small bottle of mineral oil, and a small dropper are much less expensive than a valve job.

[SousaSaver]

Good advice from iiipopes

[opus37]

I tried a couple of drops of 3 in 1 oil on the valves and then a heavy dose of standard valve oil. That worked great. I'll try the mineral oil in valve oil mixture. I have a bottle of Hetman Classic on order. I think you are right on with the slightly heavier oil mixture suggestion. Thank you for the help.

One thing I also did was replace the mouthpiece with a Denis Wick #3. That really made the horn sound better and much more fun to play. I tried the #5 but that just didn't work for me. The original was a Hornic Professional Eb. That one just hurt my face to use. Now I have significantly more money into the mouthpiece than I do in the horn.

[iiipopes]

DO NOT MIX THE HETMAN WITH ANYTHING ELSE. You will get strange crud. I'm sorry you ordered it. If you decide to use the Hetman, you will have to completely disassemble your horn, completely clean out every last bit of conventional lubricants, and then carefully reassemble lubricating with the Hetman as you go.

[tubatom91]

Hetman's is advertised and formulated to mix with non-synthetics.

"• Compatibility - each lubricant is compatible with conventional petroleum-based oils, avoiding potential gumming problems associated with some synthetics."
from Hetman's webpage: http://www.hetman.com/products.html" target="_blank

[opus37]

O.K. now I'm a bit confused. I have one person say that Hetman can gunk up my horn if I don't completely clean my horn and a second who says it is compatible. Cleaning the valves is easy. Probably a good choice anyway. I have been using a bit of vasselene on the slides to keep them movable and that seems to work fine. My valve oil is just Conn valve oil, which I plan to mix with a little mineral oil to tighten things up a bit. Shortly, I will have my horn ultrasonically cleaned. That should take care of the completely clean suggestion. Maybe start using the Hetman after that? Any further comments on this....... I also run a brass saver brush through it regularly.

[iiipopes]

Remember, a company will say anything pushing the edge of reason to sell their products.

[SousaSaver]

In my opinion you should try a few different things and use what works best for you. I have heard that mixing Hetman's with other products can gum up an instrument...but I don't know what products mixed together can cause that exactly. If you are switching lubricants of any kind, you should thoroughly clean your pistons and casings before applying new lubricants. Synthetics do not seem to play nice with petroleum based oils.

[opus37]

It sounds like Hetman Classic Piston has some issues for a few people. I guess I'll stick with what I have (mineral oil and standard valve oil) and call the bottle of Hetman a loss. It was only $5 anyway.

[opus37]

I have an update on this horn. I had it in for cleaning, re-soldering, re-corking and felts. It came back looking wonderful and sounding significantly better. My repair person loved the horn and she really went the extra mile to make it as good as it can be. She re-build several joins and supports. The horn still needs a valve job and the third valve stem needs to be replaced, it is too short. (We think it was broken years ago and never attended too). I will play it through the winter season and have these repairs done in the spring.

The first advice you get is to clean an old horn and have the valve corks/felts redone. I wholly concur with this advice. It really makes a big difference.

[iiipopes]

In the meantime, get some really small hobby washers that are the diameter of the valve stem (or, as will usually be the case, just a tad larger) and a hole the size of the threads on the valve button. Put a couple (or more, if you have enough threads on your button) on the short valve stem and you might get just enough travel to open up those notes that need it a little more. I've experimented with my Besson this way, as it seems to be engineered with dry-fit-length stems, not allowing for much thickness of cork and felt.

[Lee Stofer]

Congratulations on getting your old Martin Eb in (mostly) decent working condition.

I do want to weigh-in on one issue. After having tried just about anything and everything out there as a player, then as a repair technician, I will tell you that, regardless of what some of the experts on this forum may tell you, that Hetman lubricants are one of the very best investments you can make in the long life and dependability of your instruments. Unlike other synthetic and synthetic-blend lubricants, Hetman contains no silicones, or any other ingredient that would gum-up any instrument. If anything, using Hetman lubricants in an instrument filled with 90-year-old crud might well loosen it up, which would indicate that the instrument needs a more thorough cleaning. The fact remains that Hetman lubricants have more solid engineering and less hype attached to them than anything else that I've encountered. Hetman valve oil is a synthetic hydrocarbon. Synthetic oil has equal-length molecule chains, whereas there are variation in the molecule-chain-lengths in natual hydrocarbons. This results in the synthetic oils having greater lubricity (they're slipperier). Joe Hetman has also engineered his oil by adding viscosity enhancers (it doesn't break down as fast as traditional valve oils) and corrosion inhibitors (protects the instrument parts from corrosion). As a result, when I do my thorough chemical-cleaning on an instrument, thoroughly dry the instrument out, then lubricate it with the appropriate Hetman lubricants, the instument has great valve action, stays lubricated longer, and stays much cleaner inside for a much longer time period.

By the way, if something smells like kerosene, it is because it IS kerosene - the primary ingredient of natural hydrocarbon valve oils. And, to put my money where my mouth is, if Hetman lubricants EVER gum up your instrument, bring it to me and I'll clean your instrument for FREE.

[tubamirum]

To do a valve job correctly, you have to remove the valve block from the body so the casings can be honed. Obviously this adds a lot to the cost so be prepared.