Kaiser tubas

[TYA]

What exactly is a Kaiser tuba? Can anyone name any brands or what to look for when buying a kaiser tuba? And are Kaisers only in BBb or can their be CC?

[Lars Trawen]

When speaking about Kaisertubas originally is meant a 6/4 tuba in BBb with rotary valves. It's mainly a German designation meaning a huge tuba.
Of course there are today many tubas in 6/4 size, in all clefs, makes and styles. But I doubt that people associate them with Kaisers in the first place.
There also exist Kaiserbarytons in Germany meaning large bore barytons.
Most German and Czech manufacturers have Kaisermodels in their program. Some of them are Melton, Rudolf Meinl, Cerverny and B&S.
Rudolf Meinl does even have a 7/4-model, being the biggest on the market serial manufactured.

[Wyvern]

'Kaiser tuba' is just the name given to large 5/4 & 6/4 German style tubas. They usually have rotary valves of large bore (over 0.8 inches), large bell throat and bottom bow, a 500mm bell, (although smaller on older model Kaisers), and usually a quite high bell stack. They are mostly in BBb, although a large CC of this style can also be a Kaiser.

The Meinl-Weston 195 Fafner and Cerveny 601 are examples of Kaiser tubas.

[TYA]

Are Kaiser tubas played in orchestras around America since most of them are BBb and the popular thing in America is the CC?

[toobagrowl]

Kaiser tuba = a large 5/4 or 6/4 German/Czech-style rotary contrabass tuba. TubaTinker has a nice old Cerveny BBb Kaiser tuba posted in the "For Sale" section. He has a very good price on it. I was tempted to buy it, but I just don't have a need for it...

[bort]

The Miraphone 190 is a big boy as well. Never met one in person, but from photos it looks like Miraphone kind of "skips a size" between the 188 and 190.

[Tuba Guy]

Don't forget the Cerveny 701, which is a 601 with rose brass and nickel trim. In fact, I think there's one of those (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40869) for sale too shameless plug

[Wyvern]

According to Neptune's description, anyone playing a THOR or Alex (163, 164) would fit into this. I am uncertain if the bore on a PT6, but one could argue this too. There are numerous examples of well known professionals playing these horns.

I would not consider a Thor, or PT-6 a Kaiser because they do not have the large bore characteristic of a Kaiser and of course the Thor is piston valve. The rotary PT-6 bore starts at 0.748" which is more characteristic of an American BAT - the same for my Neptune although both look Kaiser like - one could say they are a sort of cross-breed.

The Alex 164 is a Kaiser, but not the 163. The Miraphone 190 is definitely also a Kaiser.

A short description of Kaiser would be "German style contrabass tuba of extra large size"

[bisontuba]

HI-
I think the term Kaiser is really for 'bore' determination--not size of tuba, meaning 'Kaiser' bore for some European made instruments.
For example, Cerveny calls the Piggy models 'Kaiser bore'--now a Piggy is certainly not a 5/4 or 6/4 horn as we in the States think of such an instrument (like a Holton or a York)--but with an .830 bore, the maker calls it a 'Kaiser bore.' A Piggy-with its large bore, tight wrap, and small bell is certainly not what we think of a 5/4 or 6/4.
I think we wrongly call certain horns Kaiser tubas when it should be used for bore size period. I think of European Kaiser bore models like an Alex 164, a Cerveny .827/.830+ bore model(s), a Miraphone 190, a M/W or Melton 195/6/7, a Rudi 5/4 & 6/4 model(s), etc.--all these horns have different bodies and bell sizes, but they have .825+ bores.
Also, Cerveny calls some of their Euphoniums 'Kaiser bore' models-- so again, I think Kaiser is meant for 'massive bore,' and not just the horn size--of course with the huge Rudi 6/4 or 7/4 BBb tuba, you certainly get both, but with a Cerveny Piggy or 'Kaiser bore' Euph, that is not the case.
I hope I made some sense.
Regards-
mark

[bort]

I don't know what it is, but I'll know it when I see it!

[Wyvern]

I am really just trying to point out the ambiguousness of the term "Kaiser", about as clear as "BAT"

Agreed there, but I have tried a Alex 163 in the past - it is a 'large' tuba, but not 'extra large' when you see standing beside a 164. The same applies to the B&S GR-51. Really in the end it doesn't matter - Kaiser is only a name used by manufacturers for advertising the largest tuba in their range.

It is rather amusing that Rudolf Meinl call their 5/4 Bayreuth a kleine Kaisertuba (small Kaiser tuba) when it is bigger than both the MW Fafner or Cerveny 601/701. Of other manufacturers maybe only the MW 197 and new Nirschl Kaiser BBb (based on the old B&F design) are larger?

I think the term Kaiser is really for 'bore' determination--not size of tuba, meaning 'Kaiser' bore for some European made instruments.

If one uses that definition then a St.Pete is also a Kaiser - they are of very large bore. Maybe 'Pocket-Kaiser' (similar to the use 'pocket-battleship' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_poc ... eutschland) would be good for such models of large bore and compact size?

[Roger Fjeldet]

I think I have read sometime that Cerveny, when building this big bore Bb tuba, wanted to honor the Austrian emperor (Kaiser) and named it "Kaiser-tuba".
Kaiser-tubas ment Bb tubas with maximun bore
Roger

[bort]

What exactly is a Kaiser tuba? Can anyone name any brands or what to look for when buying a kaiser tuba? And are Kaisers only in BBb or can their be CC?

A few other things to make sure you check...
-- Intonation (always!) -- big tubas can get kind of wild
-- That it fits *you*... these are big tubas (duh). The Cerveny Dan is selling is 46" tall, which is a full 10" taller than my Marzan. I think you've said before that you're not super tall, so make sure that it is realistic for you (sorry if I've mixed you up with someone else).
-- Response/resistance...make sure you've got the air for it. Some kaisertubas have so little resistance that it'll feel like it sucks the air right out of you. Others are a little friendlier. They all take a lot of air.

Fun to play, fun to listen to, but not for everyone. There's a reason why 90% (or whatever) of the tubas out there are "4/4" sized.

[TYA]

What exactly is a Kaiser tuba? Can anyone name any brands or what to look for when buying a kaiser tuba? And are Kaisers only in BBb or can their be CC?

A few other things to make sure you check...
-- Intonation (always!) -- big tubas can get kind of wild
-- That it fits *you*... these are big tubas (duh). The Cerveny Dan is selling is 46" tall, which is a full 10" taller than my Marzan. I think you've said before that you're not super tall, so make sure that it is realistic for you (sorry if I've mixed you up with someone else).
-- Response/resistance...make sure you've got the air for it. Some kaisertubas have so little resistance that it'll feel like it sucks the air right out of you. Others are a little friendlier. They all take a lot of air.

Fun to play, fun to listen to, but not for everyone. There's a reason why 90% (or whatever) of the tubas out there are "4/4" sized.

Yes I am that person who said I am not that tall. But I played a kaiser tuba before I think. My friend has a 5/4 BBb Kroner It was very tall but surprisingly light and out of all the tubas I have tried even my own I felt like I got the best sound out of his tuba and it just felt right. That's why I am interested in kaisers. And another thing with his kroner I always played in tune I never needed to pull any slides so that made me happy.

[Wyvern]

My friend has a 5/4 BBb Kroner

What is that? Never heard of them

If you want a light Kaiser, then a Cerveny may be the answer. My previous 701 is for sale at present viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40869&" target="_blank - that is an excellent tuba!

[TYA]

My friend has a 5/4 BBb Kroner

What is that? Never heard of them

Me either. All I can tell you is that it was a huge silver BBb 4 clockspring rotary valve with a large bell on it. Handmade and for its size super light. It is lighter or around the same weight as a Miraphone 186.

[jeopardymaster]

Hmm. I've looked twice for a Cerveny kaiser tuba on tubatinker's site - no success. What am I missing?

[Michael Bush]

Having been raised in Kentucky, living now in South Carolina, I'm ready to forget about BATs and Kaisers and all the technical definitions of them, and call every tuba I run across that's bigger than I expect it to be a "Big Ol' Tuba. " Like "That's a big ol' truck."

Big Ol'. Someone once told me it's the first thing you learn to say when you move to the south.

Perfectly usable, and immune to technicalities.

EDIT: or you could call it a DBT. Equally immune to technicalities.

[cle_tuba]

I once heard a theory that there are tubes in "V" and "U" the kaiser would be tall and thin tubes with rotors, tuba classic example of "V" and that York would tubas and low fat with pistos classic example of tuba "U". To what extent is this true?

[Rick Denney]

BAT is a description of any very large contrabass tuba. The visual size of it is important, because the definition is tested by the reactions of flute players.

The American-style BAT is the grand orchestral tuba, as originally exemplified by the Conn Orchestra Grand Bass. "6/4" was first used in reference to this design to distinguish it from "5/4" kaiser tubas.

The German-style BAT is a kaisertuba. I don't care what Cerveny intended a century and a half ago--this is the definition as it is used today. The Alexander 164 is a kaiser, even though the 163 still has a monstrous bore. But I do think a real kaiser has to have rotary valves, just as a Grand Orchestral tuba will have piston valves.

And, yes, there are and have always been exceptions and hybrids. The King 1235 of the deeps of time is a rotary instrument that is still more American than German. It's big enough to be a BAT, but is it a kaiser or a grant orchestral tuba? You pick. I lean kaiser for that one, despite the Ohio accent. And there are several tubas on the market that are more German than American in their conception, despite having piston valves.

A Cerveny with a "kaiser bore" just has a kaiser bore. That doesn't make it a kaiser. A King 2341 has a 20" bell, but it is not a grand orchestral tuba.

Bb or C doesn't matter. Being a contrabass does.

Rick "prove me wrong" Denney