Buzz without a mouthpiece

[Wu299]

Hello,

When warming up in lesson, I start with buzz without mouthpiece, then continue with mouthpiece and then long tones. The problem is that I cant buzz without mouthpiece properly. My teacher gives me tone with piano, but I just cant follow it. WIth mouthpiece I can do it, but without ... its a problem.

So my question is: which part of lips is actually being used? The same as the one that is inside mouthpiece? Any tips how I can hit the tone properly beside "practice!"?

Anyways, any advice regarding this theme is appreciated. Thank you.

[AFtuba]

If you read Song and Wind you will find it out;

Read what Jacobs says about buzzing without mouthpiece...If you have problems maybe there is a reason.

[djwesp]

Buzzing without the mouthpiece can be very harmful unless done correctly.

This is called freebuzzing by most, and 9 times out of 10 even the people that do it daily do not do it correctly.

My advice would be to contact doug elliot and get some instruction on how to do it the right way.

[Alex C]

There's more than one way to play brass instruments. I remember hearing Bill Watrous play and free buzz interchangeably, and he was wicked good at it.

On the other hand, he is probably not ever going to play in a symphony orchestra, and I expect that most orchestral tubists do not spend much time free buzzing. Just a guess.

Find out what you want to sound like and follow players who sound that way. It may or may not include free buzzing.

[Karl H.]

Not meaning to be too much of a horse's backside, but I bet you have a hard time buzzing accurately while swimming underwater as well. Does that mean you should spend time trying to perfect your buzzing underwater?

It seems to me that unfocussed embouchure utilization is pointless. Kind of like using a violin bow with no horsehair: will you get better if you practice that way? Maybe a little, but tone and accuracy will NEVER be as good as a bow with horsehair attached.

Are you ever going to play the tuba without a mouthpiece? Then is buzzing without one really important?

I say, if you are buzzing pitches successfully on the mouthpiece, you're doing fine. Have fun, think music first, and make the most beautiful sound you can!

Karl "if only I would take my own advice" H.

[Chen]

Not only is free buzzing useless, it is harmful because your embouchure/tongue/throat all work way too hard to producce the lower notes (~middle C and below); and higher notes (middle C and above) are too easy because there's no resistance. Even with a mouthpiece rim, it is only better compare to free buzzing (no rim) because there's still no resistance. For the same reason, I am also against buzzing mouthpiece without some kind of resistance-adding device.

It's been 18 yrs since I started playing tuba and I can understand/empathize some techniques that are taken out of context by students (i.e. taken too seriously). It's easy to do it too much. Not doing it at all is WAY better than doing it too much, and more importantly, doing it wrong.

I understand Christian Lindberg never bothered to buzz. My main tuba teachers (tenured players at major orchestra, tenured professor at top conservatory) never bothered to buzz, yet they still sound great: the point is buzzing is not required to be great.

BERP is great, though. If you want to buzz and don't have one already, you should.

To sum up:
1. Buzzing is not required for you to be a great player
2. Buzzing w/o resistance is bad for you even when you "believe" you are doing something "right" it's just that the effect takes long time to show (maybe, but it's not what you think)
3. The only way to buzz right is to use BERP or a similar device. But then you will also notice that those who are great never needed it in the first place. Those who are great and using it became great before using it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this.

[Doug Elliott]

I don't play tuba, so I would like to reserve judgement on the relative merits or otherwise, of "freebuzzing" for tuba, until I have a chance to spend some time working on tuba myself.

In my own trombone playing, and in my teaching which includes trumpet, trombone and bass trombone, buzzing without the mouthpiece plays a very important part. When done correctly (by my standards) it is extremely beneficial in multiple ways, with absolutely no harmful effects if done in the right range, with proper form and the right amount. Of course, like weightlifting or any exercise, or even normal practicing, it needs to be done with proper form and in a balanced way and amount. Too much of anything is problematic. But that doesn't make the right amount, done the right way, harmful.

And just for the record, buzzing WITH the mouthpiece plays no part in my playing or teaching.

[Monstertuba]

Thank goodness for Doug Elliot. Can you imagine what young impressionable students would have taken away from this thread had not the 'uber professional' stepped in? Below is a response I wrote to a post in which I generalized about some of the responses on Tubenet to legitimate pedagogical questions. My advise is listen to your private teacher or professionals with known reputations who offer their knowledge on this board like Doug Elliot.

"I don't mean to be rude, but while this board is a reasonable place to start looking for information it should in no way represent the finality and authority for information especially when compared to the knowledge, education, and experience of a dedicated teacher sitting by the side of a student. A lot of the information/advice on this board is very valuable, given by people who know. A lot of it is not. And I would dare say that most people who are giving information that is not so reliable have no idea that what they're offering may be not only not helpful or erroneous but downright unhelpful given their 1. lack of knowledge about the subject in general, or 2. Their lack of knowledge about the specifics of the seeker of information's actual condition.

Sean has tried to help matters by the 'professional' designation but that has not stopped people without that designation from offering excellent advice, and some people with that designation from offering advice that is not so excellent. Even my estimation of that advice is subject to my own opinions, knowledge and experience...From time to time you'll see posts by 'uber' professionals, professionals with known reputations who operate at the highest levels of our craft. I would consider them the exception to the questionable advice rule, but even they are best going to be able to fix a problem when sitting next to you.

I have seen discussions concluded on this board by a person of 'authority' (they're often given communal authority because they post a lot and offer thoroughly opinionated, rhetorically patronizing and sometimes sound advise), that ends the discussion with sub-par, misleading or incorrect information. While there is certainly no guarantee that you'll get perfectly sound instruction from a private teacher, there are certain situations that demand the attention of a private teacher, and the very best advice is to stop listening to the conjecture and guessing of the people who are responding to a bulletin board post and go and find a teacher who can diagnose and treat a given problem with accuracy. This bbs is an invaluable part of our community but it would be well for everyone to understand what it is and what it is not..."

[Chen]

Thank goodness for Doug Elliot. Can you imagine what young impressionable students would have taken away from this thread had not the 'uber professional' stepped in? Below is a response I wrote to a post in which I generalized about some of the responses on Tubenet to legitimate pedagogical questions. My advise is listen to your private teacher or professionals with known reputations who offer their knowledge on this board like Doug Elliot.

"I don't mean to be rude, but while this board is a reasonable place to start looking for information it should in no way represent the finality and authority for information especially when compared to the knowledge, education, and experience of a dedicated teacher sitting by the side of a student. A lot of the information/advice on this board is very valuable, given by people who know. A lot of it is not. And I would dare say that most people who are giving information that is not so reliable have no idea that what they're offering may be not only not helpful or erroneous but downright unhelpful given their 1. lack of knowledge about the subject in general, or 2. Their lack of knowledge about the specifics of the seeker of information's actual condition.

Sean has tried to help matters by the 'professional' designation but that has not stopped people without that designation from offering excellent advice, and some people with that designation from offering advice that is not so excellent. Even my estimation of that advice is subject to my own opinions, knowledge and experience...From time to time you'll see posts by 'uber' professionals, professionals with known reputations who operate at the highest levels of our craft. I would consider them the exception to the questionable advice rule, but even they are best going to be able to fix a problem when sitting next to you.

I have seen discussions concluded on this board by a person of 'authority' (they're often given communal authority because they post a lot and offer thoroughly opinionated, rhetorically patronizing and sometimes sound advise), that ends the discussion with sub-par, misleading or incorrect information. While there is certainly no guarantee that you'll get perfectly sound instruction from a private teacher, there are certain situations that demand the attention of a private teacher, and the very best advice is to stop listening to the conjecture and guessing of the people who are responding to a bulletin board post and go and find a teacher who can diagnose and treat a given problem with accuracy. This bbs is an invaluable part of our community but it would be well for everyone to understand what it is and what it is not..."

Do you plan to quote yourself in your every post from now on?

[AFtuba]

This kind of forum is very important to get informations, and all the different opinions of each one built an impressive amount of informations, the student then....or better the person ( never forget that behind a student there's always a human being) should filter this informations to take what he needs,maybe with the help if his teacher..... or maybe not.
experience is one of the most powerful tools we have, what I use to say to my students is that I can show them the way but they have to walk that way by themselves.
What works for one doesn't mean that could be useful for everybody, but you know this only after many hours of lessons with the most important teacher around the world, and a lot of reading and research.
Nobody will die for a free buzzing, but if he has found problems doing it, for sure is doing something wrong,so two are the solutions:
1- try to get more informations (and this the right place)
2- ask his teacher, or another one that have the knowledge to help him

[tubademon999]

I would just like to say that I know for a fact that Daniel Perantoni is a big advocator of mouthpiece buzzing, and Arnold Jacobs was an even bigger proponent of it. I also know that John Van Houten is not. There are always multipe schools of thought to everything, and what you do to make yourself better is really up to you. Anyone can tell you how to practice, but ultimately it will be your own decision to improve in the fashion of your choice. Thats all I have to say. =).

[Wu299]

Nice replys, thanks.

In yesterday lesson I asked him to play a little lower and after that I had actually no problems, just like with mouthpiece. The professor at conservatory I go to from time to time is, just like my teacher, using freebuzz/mouthpiece buzz for warming up a lot. The fact is that my country is behind USA/"western" countries ... behind about 40 years. The communists here stopped any actually move forward in brass playing and a lot of methods used here are actually fairly old. However I am lucky enough Im teached by people who still look to more modern world than we have here and use pretty modern methods.

[djwesp]

I don't play tuba, so I would like to reserve judgement on the relative merits or otherwise, of "freebuzzing" for tuba, until I have a chance to spend some time working on tuba myself.

In my own trombone playing, and in my teaching which includes trumpet, trombone and bass trombone, buzzing without the mouthpiece plays a very important part. When done correctly (by my standards) it is extremely beneficial in multiple ways, with absolutely no harmful effects if done in the right range, with proper form and the right amount. Of course, like weightlifting or any exercise, or even normal practicing, it needs to be done with proper form and in a balanced way and amount. Too much of anything is problematic. But that doesn't make the right amount, done the right way, harmful.

And just for the record, buzzing WITH the mouthpiece plays no part in my playing or teaching.

Great post doug! I've been doing the buzzing technique for about the last year and love it. It works well even for tuba, for me at least, and obviously becomes unusable in the low range.

[Doug Elliott]

Great post doug! I've been doing the buzzing technique for about the last year and love it. It works well even for tuba, for me at least, and obviously becomes unusable in the low range.

I don't think that's obvious to everyone, which is probably why all the negative views about it.

Buzzing below about 4th line F (concert pitch trombone octave) usually becomes too different from a normal embouchure to be useful, and that's where it can definitely be detrimental. That point is pretty high in tuba range, which is why I am hesitant to express an opinion about how it may or may not relate to tuba playing, until I spend some time with it myself.

[Ken Herrick]

If you read Song and Wind you will find it out;

Read what Jacobs says about buzzing without mouthpiece...If you have problems maybe there is a reason.

Well said, Alessandro. Or, as Jake would have put it, Bravo!

The properly formed embouchure, defined by the rim of the mp. is the brass players equivalent of the singers vocal chords. It is the point of sound production with the instrument merely being an amplifier. Admittedly, some amplifiers work better than others.

[Chen]

If you read Song and Wind you will find it out;

Read what Jacobs says about buzzing without mouthpiece...If you have problems maybe there is a reason.

Well said, Alessandro. Or, as Jake would have put it, Bravo!

The properly formed embouchure, defined by the rim of the mp. is the brass players equivalent of the singers vocal chords. It is the point of sound production with the instrument merely being an amplifier. Admittedly, some amplifiers work better than others.

And in the audiophile world there's this saying: "carp in, crap out."

[Ken Herrick]

[
And in the audiophile world there's this saying: "carp in, crap out." [/quote]

There seems to be something slightly fishy about that, but your point comes through, YEP!!!

[happyroman]

The lips are made up of two different types of muscle fibers, the thicker ones that run basically horizontally, the more delicate, finer muscles that are basically perpendicular to these. It is these more delicate fibers that are responsible for the retraction and protraction of the lips. According to Arnold Jacobs, these muscle fibers must be isolated by the the pressure of the rim of a mouthpiece in order for them to function properly. If they are not isolated in this manner, it can be detrimental.

If you are trying to introduce a greater level of challenge to your buzzing, I would suggest using just a mouthpiece rim. It is more difficult to get th lips vibrating with the rim alone, but still allows for these delicate muscles to be properly isolated so that they can function properly.

Here's a link to a video of Mr. Jacobs discussing this topic during a masterclass.

http://www.windsongpress.com/breathing% ... %20rim.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank

[swillafew]

I don't expect to find any standards of performance on free buzzing; I did have a good instructor who used it as an example of something a properly formed embouchure should be able to do.

I would not recommend it as an end in itself.