Experts, please, tell me about Eb tubas

[eupher61]

Walter,
SWEET horn! Thanks for the horn dorn, it's a beauty!
(and, now that I really read your comments, I'm changing my response a little bit).

Regarding your blatty, spread, whatever sound. You actually said "at the bottom of the 88", implying the pedal Bb etc, way down there. If you're a beginner, and you're playing in that range (6 leger lines below the staff, or an octave below Bb below the bass clef staff), 1) you're doing pretty dadgum well and 2) your tone is likely to be blatty no matter what.

If it's actually the first Bb below the staff, air could be one solution. Lack of focus of the air is hard to describe when not in person, but if your cheeks are puffy, your lips are really, really really loose, and you can't find the pitch, it could come down to air.

Or, it could be the horn. Or, the mouthpiece. A 4 valve souzie should be ok in that range. I wonder about the bell change, though. If the bell was grafted on without consideration of overall length, there could be serious problems. I'm not saying that's the case, since I don't know anything about the specific instrument aside from the picture. If it was done by an experienced Frankentuba maker, it'll be fine.

A 5th valve won't add extra tubing to any note, it will just change the resistance and fingering. By having different bends in the airstream, the response could be changed for better or worse.

But, which range is it, really? The extreme, totally at the bottom of the piano keyboard, or an octave up. Remember that the lowest "normal" pitch of a 3 valve Eb tuba is A, 3 legers below the staff. That will help anyone with any virtual suggestions.

steve

[Walter Webb]

You actually said "at the bottom of the 88", implying the pedal Bb etc, way down there......But, which range is it, really? The extreme, totally at the bottom of the piano keyboard, or an octave up. Remember that the lowest "normal" pitch of a 3 valve Eb tuba is A, 3 legers below the staff.
steve

Oops. I edited my first post to show that I am talking about C (2 lines below the staff) and downward, not an octave below that, which in the seismic throb zone. It's not the horn or mpc. Others play it just fine. It's me and my developing chops. Still wondering what difference a large bore makes in the sound. One player informed me that a large bore inst. will take more air to operate. Still not sure if any Eb tuba can compete with a Bb at full volume.
This Kanstul is my new fetish object: http://www.kanstul.net/detail.php?pass_ ... nd%20Brass" target="_blank

[termite]

Hmm

I've sat next to a lot or players who have a huge low register on the Besson Sovereign EEb. They will beat a less developed amateur BBb player in this register. It should be noted that the Besson is a very large powerful EEb. I've also heard a few people get a huge low register on large F tubas although with a different sound to the Besson. You should be able to get volume on the smaller tubas - in some cases more than a larger tuba but without the weight and room filling presence of a contrabass tuba.

I've also sat next to various people playing Yamaha 321 EEb's which are a smaller EEb than the Besson. I have heard this instrument played with a nice solid tuba sound and I've heard it cut through with a blatty trombone like sound.

Playing big bass lines in a large ensemble on a smaller tuba is definitely an art form. If you blow your head off with a large contrabass tuba in this situation everything just falls into place.

I'm a confirmed BBb player - I make an EEb tuba sound like a garden hose with a funnel stuck in the end. I once spent six months playing only EEb with little improvement. The problem is me - not the tuba.

As an aside I get the same range on either EEb or BBb - I can't go any higher on EEb despite the shorter tubing and I don't get any lower on BBb.

Regards

Gerard

[iiipopes]

As an aside I get the same range on either EEb or BBb - I can't go any higher on EEb despite the shorter tubing and I don't get any lower on BBb.

Hey, termite -- you're not alone. Pitch is pitch. You still need the same embouchure conditioning and breath support to hit the same concert pitch, regardless of the pitch of the instrument. I found that out very quickly as a teenager playing trumpet, when I first got to try a piccolo trumpet. I thought I'd get an automatic octave. If anything, the picc took more breath support and I tired sooner than on my Bb trumpet. The only thing the higher pitched instrument does is to get you into a lower series of overtones, which being spaced further apart, can help with security of intonation.

And here's something very few people think about: A King 2341 BBb and a Besson Sovereign Eb both have a .687 or .689 (you tell me the practical difference in .002 and I'll buy lunch and beverages all around), and both have a moderate throat and flare 19 or 20 inch bell (again, at that size, tell me the practical difference....). So it is reasonable that a good Sov Eefer can really bang out the low end, just like a King 2341 can. The King used to come stock with their #25 mouthpiece, which isn't too far off diameter-wise from a Wick 3L (although the King 25 is more of a bowl and the Wick 3L is a deep funnel), and a "traditional" King 26 is similar to a Wick 2L, though the Wick has a larger throat.

[Donn]

So it is reasonable that a good Sov Eefer can really bang out the low end, just like a King 2341 can.

It is not reasonable. It's a miracle, if it's true. Comparison of measurements these instruments at each end is missing the point. The problem is what happens in the middle, where for that low Bb, the Eb tuba is what, about 2/3? dead straight, where the BBb is as conical as it gets. (A half step up at B, that shoe is a little on the other foot, but that's 3rd partial for the BBb tuba so the acoustics are arguably a little more flexible.)

We have anecdotal reports of bass tubas that can compete with contrabass tubas on their own territory, and I'll take those for what they're worth, but the just judging from the apparent physics of it, I'd put my money on the contrabass down there.

[iiipopes]

What happens in the middle to low end is that there is about as much cylindrical tubing from the comp loops coming into play on the Sov Eefer as there is on the valve circuits of a conventional King 2341. So there is similarity in amount of .687/.689 tubing actually in the loop (pun intended) and therefore response. I didn't say identical. I said a Sov Eefer can bang out the bottom end, not necessarily be the be-all, end-all, only tuba to support an American concert band, just like a single King 2341 won't necessarily support a full concert band by itself, either.

[GC]

It depends on the register that you're comparing. My Monster Conn Eb is a bear from pedal Eb down to pedal A. A BBb in that range tends to be a bit weaker-toned with either false tones or 4th-5th valve combinations until it reaches pedal Bb. However, below pedal Bb, the BBb horn is stronger.

Plus, don't forget that some of the bigger Eb tubas are as big as a 4/4 BBb in bell width and volume. These horns were designed to compete with contrabass tubas in terms of tone and depth of sound. I had several years of playing 6/4 BBb horns and am addicted to the sound and low response of big tubas. Monster Eb's are just as satisfying and have a lot more flexibility.

[Donn]

What happens in the middle to low end is that there is about as much cylindrical tubing from the comp loops coming into play on the Sov Eefer as there is on the valve circuits of a conventional King 2341.

Where is this middle to low end? The question posed at the beginning of the thread is fairly specifically (albeit belatedly) about B, Bb and A below the staff - is that approximately the range you're talking about, or did you have something else in mind? Comp loops or whatever, an Eb tuba playing Bb below the staff is going through somewhere between 4 and 5 feet of valve tubing, am I right? and the BBb tuba not an inch.

That's the low end on common tuba parts. In standard march arrangements in my book, I could probably count the pieces with a low G on one hand, and I can't even think of one with a low F - but Bb and A or Ab are all over the place. For that kind of stuff, for an amateur player with limited funds trying to hold down the tuba part on his own, an ordinary 3 valve BBb tuba is going to be immensely better than any affordable Eb.

[peter birch]

all the talk about "banging out" the low range seems to feed into the original question about the sound being "blatty and burpy", it is not a characteristic of the instrument but of the players. One might occasionally wish to "bang out" low notes, but surely not all the time! No one has yet mentioned getting a subtle or even a musical sound in the low range.
when I am playing well, I can play a range of 4 octaves of the Ab scale, I aim to make the highest octave and the lowest sound as lovely as the 2 in the middle, with beautiful ringing notes and nothing strained or banged out or indeed blatty or burpy. Now if someone can tell us how to play these notes more nicely and more beautifully, rather than just louder we might start to get somewhere