RVW Tuba Concerto Errata

[theanalogkid]

Hey guys,

Trying to find the errata list for the RVW tuba concerto, but I'm having difficulty finding it. Anyone got any help for me?

Also - side note. I'm doing my master's paper over the piece, and was wondering if you all had any suggestions/recommendations for good sources on RVW, the piece, etc.

Thanks guys!
--
Aaron

[Rick Denney]

Also - side note. I'm doing my master's paper over the piece, and was wondering if you all had any suggestions/recommendations for good sources on RVW, the piece, etc.

I have only a few recommendations of specific sources, but I would offer this: If your master's thesis is going to be more than just another "term paper" (and I hope your school will demand such), you will need to read everything written about it, including what must be many of other theses on the topic. Having read all of what there is, you'll then need to make a new point or show some new insight. That may be a daunting task for such a well-known work. The literature review will be the vast bulk of the work that you must do, and you might have to do a thesis library search of a number of universities that offer graduate music programs in tuba. I know of one recent one by Chan at Boston University, dated 2009, which may have a good literature review to help you identify other reading material (you have to read all of it yourself, though--you may gain different insight than Chan).

There are several books on RVW as a man and composer, but they say little about the tuba concerto. Michael Kennedy wrote the most, but also Ursula Vaughan Williams and the composer himself (e.g. National Music and Other Essays). Kennedy's first edition has a complete reference of all the composer's works. James Day is another biographer, but more summarized than Kennedy. You might also check with the RVW Society, who has a newsletter that analyzes various of the composer's works. I don't know if they have ever had an article on the tuba concerto, though--I let my membership lapse a dozen years ago when it was just too difficult to maintain (they required payment of dues in pounds sterling in those days, for example, paid by mail). There is also a video (O Thou Transcendent: The Life of Ralph Vaughan Williams) that included information I had not seen in any of the books. Nothing much in any of these about the tuba concerto, but you'll need to know it anyway.

Don't forget the liner notes for the premiere of the Tuba Concerto, which was recorded in 1954, the day after the premiere by Philip Catelinet, in addition to the liner notes for the other recordings. The premiere recording was done by Angel, with John Barbirolli conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, if that helps you locate it. It has been released on CD as a vintage recording.

Rick "warning against shortcuts" Denney

[SRanney]

I have only a few recommendations of specific sources, but I would offer this: If your master's thesis is going to be more than just another "term paper" (and I hope your school will demand such), you will need to read everything written about it, including what must be many of other theses on the topic. Having read all of what there is, you'll then need to make a new point or show some new insight. That may be a daunting task for such a well-known work. The literature review will be the vast bulk of the work that you must do, and you might have to do a thesis library search of a number of universities that offer graduate music programs in tuba.

Excellent advice. Why write a Master's thesis when it doesn't provide some new insight?

I recognize that the humanities is much different from the sciences, but I can't imagine that any good music graduate-school program would allow you to write and publish a thesis that doesn't present new information. Read the previous literature, find papers and theses previously unknown to you, read some more, and keep reading. Like Rick said, the literature review will be the bulk of your work. When you find that you're no longer collecting papers and theses, when your university's inter-library loan department already knows your name and what you're studying, when YOU are the expert on the RVW tuba concerto (and by extension, RVW the man, too), THEN you can start writing your thesis. Push the boundaries of what is known about this work. Create some new and independent idea about what the RVW concerto is, something that has never been investigated in depth before. THAT is what makes good research.

Steven

[theanalogkid]

Actually, my paper is going to be a study on how advanced high-school students, undergrads, and grads/semi-pro approach the piece, what they're going to struggle with at each level, etc etc. I'm gearing it to be more pedagogical. One of the undergrads at my school is working it up right now, so I'm using him as a case study of sorts, plus I've got alot of professors/private teachers that have all worked on the piece with students.

[SRanney]

Actually, my paper is going to be a study on how advanced high-school students, undergrads, and grads/semi-pro approach the piece, what they're going to struggle with at each level, etc etc. I'm gearing it to be more pedagogical. One of the undergrads at my school is working it up right now, so I'm using him as a case study of sorts, plus I've got alot of professors/private teachers that have all worked on the piece with students.

The implication being that you won't have to spend so much time with your nose buried in previous papers or theses? I'd be surprised if this question hasn't been asked before. How did you develop this research question? What is the previous knowledge about how others have approached learning this piece? If you are already familiar with the pedagogical literature surrounding this piece then good for you. If not, you need to find it, read it, study it, and know it.

I view research--ANY research--as a means to forward the profession, whatever profession you're in, and advance our knowledge of what is known. Stand on the shoulders of those who have come before you; know what has already been done. Research questions, in my view, should be questions that need an answer. If "how advanced high-school students, undergrads, and grads/semi-pro approach the piece, what they're going to struggle with at each level, etc etc." hasn't already been asked an answered before, then that's a great question. I'd suggest you make certain that it's not already been asked and answered before you start working on your "paper," though.

Steven "prefers the research he reads to be quantitative rather than feel good" Ranney

[Rick Denney]

Actually, my paper is going to be a study on how advanced high-school students, undergrads, and grads/semi-pro approach the piece, what they're going to struggle with at each level, etc etc. I'm gearing it to be more pedagogical. One of the undergrads at my school is working it up right now, so I'm using him as a case study of sorts, plus I've got alot of professors/private teachers that have all worked on the piece with students.

Could be a useful angle that maybe has not already been explored. You'll need real data, of course--otherwise it's opinion and not a "study". And you'll still need to do all that literature review.

One question you might ask is whether the RVW makes an appropriate competition solo for American high-school tuba players. Personally, I don't think it does. I think it promotes note-making and not music-making. But I have no data to back that up. Will your paper be better than my opinion?

Rick "up to you--good luck" Denney

[swillafew]

There are several outstanding posts in the thread already.

Each school keeps standards for signing the papers. Your committee has a checklist of sorts, and your project will conform to it, or it won't get signed. The faculty has a professional interest in not signing a weak paper.

A important part of your work is to read recently signed theses at your school. Analyze them with all the attention you intend to give the concerto. Everything from the number of pages, chapters, and citations to the exact format of the bibliography is your roadmap to getting the degree you want.

For content, be careful about limiting yourself to one piece of music.

[Stephen Shoop]

You should contact Dr. Michael A. Fischer who did his DMA dissertation on the piece. Mike is currently a public school band director in the Boise, Idaho area. His degree is from the University of North Texas. According to information on the University of North Texas Libraries website, the exact title of the dissertation is... Ralph Vaughan Williams, an Interpretive Analysis of Concerto for Bass Tuba. Good luck.

[SRanney]

You should contact Dr. Michael A. Fischer who did his DMA dissertation on the piece. Mike is currently a public school band director in the Boise, Idaho area. His degree is from the University of North Texas. According to information on the University of North Texas Libraries website, the exact title of the dissertation is... Ralph Vaughan Williams, an Interpretive Analysis of Concerto for Bass Tuba. Good luck.

Hell, I'll even go one further. Here's the whole abstract. All I needed to find this abstract was to search a dissertations and theses database with the keywords "tuba" and "Williams." It took me (literally) less than 30 seconds to get this information:

Author(s): FISCHER, MICHAEL A.
Degree: D.M.A.
Year: 1998
Pages: 00051
Institution: UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS; 0158
Advisor: Adviser: DONALD LITTLE
Source: DAI, 59, no. 11A, (1998): 4003
Abstract: An interpretive analysis of Ralph Vaughan Williams' Concerto for Bass Tuba which compares tempi, interpretation of the melodic line, ornamentation, dynamics, pitches, rhythms, phrasing and articulations as utilized by four prominent tuba performers. Performers selected to share their interpretations include Arnold Jacobs, Donald Little, Richard Nahatzki and Harvey Phillips. Little, Nahatzki and Phillips provided a copy of their solo parts with their personal markings. Jacobs gave permission to transcribe his interpretation from the recording he made with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Performers' biographical information is included along with musical reviews of Concerto for Bass Tuba.

The interlibrary loan department at your university should be able to get you a copy (either hardcopy or .pdf) of this dissertation with the above information.

Steven

[Casey Tucker]

Howdy,
Our trombone professor, Dr. Howey, made a copy with the errata corrected. He based it off of the original score. PM me for more details if you'd like.
-CT

[theanalogkid]

You should contact Dr. Michael A. Fischer who did his DMA dissertation on the piece. Mike is currently a public school band director in the Boise, Idaho area. His degree is from the University of North Texas. According to information on the University of North Texas Libraries website, the exact title of the dissertation is... Ralph Vaughan Williams, an Interpretive Analysis of Concerto for Bass Tuba. Good luck.

Funny, I've actually had this thesis in my possession for a while now. Extremely informative and a great resource for me, I think.

[musikfind1]

The OMEC (Orchestra Music Errata Catalog) with over a 1000 errata lists on file, does not show one for the VW Tuba Concerto. A list comparing the different publications would be helpful and would gladly be posted.

[Rick Denney]

The OMEC (Orchestra Music Errata Catalog) with over a 1000 errata lists on file, does not show one for the VW Tuba Concerto. A list comparing the different publications would be helpful and would gladly be posted.

The problem with this work is the difference between the initial manuscript as provided to Philip Catelinet, and the printed version as initially published by Oxford. The subsequent publications have added further differences, but those differences are trivial compared to what was changed from manuscript to publication.

People have seen the rented part in manuscript, and made notes, compared with the published version. But those notes do not have any authority from the publisher, and the work is, after all, still under copyright. So, if you really want to perform a service for tuba players, you'll persuade Oxford to release the original manuscript version, even if they do so as a "historical" work, so that we can actually be able to officially know its there. Copyright laws are standing in the way of scholarship here, which was not their intention, and it's hard to imagine that Vaughan Williams, and it's hard to entertain justifications for why the originals haven't been made available. The composer died 52 years ago, and he had no children who need to benefit from his legacy. Oxford themselves would make more money if they release the original version, because everyone who has the published version now would gladly buy it again.

Rick "who has never seen the original manuscript, but who has heard about it" Denney

[Karl H.]

That UNT library has a wealth of material. When I was there, I found a book written by RVW's copyist, where he explains RVW's compositional process and clearly explains how a bunch of differences could (almost inevitably) exist in a piece of music so recently published. This little tome was the answer to a lot of questions, and was the crown jewel discovery of my research.

In a purely humorous vein, I'm reminded of an old Tom Lehrer record about the Great Lobachevsky (My name in Dnepropetrovsk is cursed, When he finds out I publish first!). Mike was a great tuba player, friend and colleague at UNT. Although my paper was only part of a course and not a thesis (Mike's is no doubt the more scholarly work), I got a rather high mark, was praised by the most meticulous scholarly prof in the school (Dr. Deanna Bush), and my paper was held in the library (in reserve) as an example. 'Course, that was a thousand years ago...

Research can be fun!

Karl "who's sprained his shoulder patting himself on the back" H.

[BVD Press]

A project for someone:

Take the published version of the music and put it into a notation program. Then add 10 empty staves below the top stave and copy and paste the top stave to all ten below while removing all of the articulations, dynamics, slurs, etc. Find 10 recordings and notate how each person recorded the piece on those 10 staves. Then compare! For us tuba geeks, it might be kind of neat!

Signing off as geek 1,

[joh_tuba]

Make that 13. If there are others I'd love to hear about it.

James Gourlay
Hans Nickel
Arnold Jacobs(Official Recording and his practice session recording)
Floyd Cooley
Walter Hilgers
Michael Lind
Benjamin Pierce
Oystein Baadsvik
Richard Nahitzki
John Fletcher
Phillip Catelinet
Patrick Harrild

I think the most striking thing is how SIMILAR they are. The primary differences are mostly in terms of style and shape of line. Not the sort of thing that is going to show up when doing the proposed notation experiment.

[BVD Press]

I think the most striking thing is how SIMILAR they are. The primary differences are mostly in terms of style and shape of line. Not the sort of thing that is going to show up when doing the proposed notation experiment.

And tempo...then again tempo might be dictated by the accompaniment to some degree.

A couple more for you:

Peter Whish-Wilson: http://shop.abc.net.au/browse/product.a ... tid=371970
Harvey Phillips
Sam Pilafian (one mvt. and quite cool!): http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Brass-Hito ... B0013AUZSI

Probably more out there as well...

[Michael Bush]

In my graduate work, at the master's level the standard was to prove you could do research. Originality was not a requirement. For the Ph.D. I had to make "an original contribution to the body of human knowledge."

It's easy to be idealistic about all this. But if your goal is an academic career the point is to get on with it: get a tenure track job (tall order) and then work on the earth-shaking research agenda. Very, very few people shake up the discipline as graduate students.

The best thing at this stage, IMO, is just to find out what is required and fulfill or surpass those requirements. If you can make an original contribution at the masters level without adding an extra year to your time to degree, by all means go for it. But the clock is ticking. When you're interviewing for your second academic job, you will not be asked a single question about your masters thesis, (and they may not ask even for your first job.)

[BVD Press]

There is no tempo marking on the manuscript.

Any clue if the tempo marked on the published version matches the tempo of the premiere or Phillip Catelinet recording?

[Alex C]

There have been so many versions of the solo part published that it is frustrating. I usually end up playing off of my early OUP edition, dog-eared and yellowed.

It is interesting to note that this article:

http://www.berliozhistoricalbrass.org/35-2_Wint08.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank

states that Roy Douglas, who wrote out the full score of the concerto for the first performance, edited the Eulenberg Edition miniature score. Unless we find RVW's handwritten version, this might be as close to the intended composition as we can get. I'm buying the Eulenberg Edition score now.