One Terrible Intonation Quirk.

[Tonelier]

I recently obtained an old Alex 164 in BBb and love it! But I found one major intonation quirk that is about to make me blow my brains out! It is the Db in the staff. I am used to throwing down 2nd but on this horn is goes almost a half step flat! However I play any other note with only 2nd and it plays perfectly fine. This is so puzzling to me and I was hoping there would be some advice on this problem or maybe even a solution! I can use 2nd and 3rd to play the Db and it goes in tune which is another confusing aspect. Wouldn't adding tubing normally make a pitch lower not higher? This is all so frustrating! Help Please!

[TexTuba]

I recently obtained an old Alex 164 in BBb and love it! But I found one major intonation quirk that is about to make me blow my brains out! It is the Db in the staff. I am used to throwing down 2nd but on this horn is goes almost a half step flat! However I play any other note with only 2nd and it plays perfectly fine. This is so puzzling to me and I was hoping there would be some advice on this problem or maybe even a solution! I can use 2nd and 3rd to play the Db and it goes in tune which is another confusing aspect. Wouldn't adding tubing normally make a pitch lower not higher? This is all so frustrating! Help Please!

Not to sound in ANY way rude, but if the one note that's "out of tune" is fixed by playing 2-3.....what's the problem?

[iiipopes]

Only one? And on an Alex? Do you realize how lucky you really are? You could have the bugle scoped to see if there is anything untoward internally, but seriously, use 2+3, and be thankful.

[Tom]

Use what actually works, not what should work regarding fingerings if you otherwise "love" the instrument. For many Alexander players this is second nature as many (but not all) Alexanders do present tuning challenges and should not be considered "point and shoot tubas." Pull slides or lip notes (if that's your style) to get to where you need to be. If playing your Db in the staff 2-3 works, do it. By the way, that fingering combination on that note isn't really that unusual. It often works better for Ebs or Dbs, such as the case may be, than just 2nd does.

That goes for all tubas...it's not just an Alexander thing.

[averagejoe]

I use several alternate fingerings on my 56j, not a big deal. As long as the partials of the open bugle are in tune don't sweat it.

[MartyNeilan]

I have played several tubas that do not have a usable 5th partial at all and it is no big deal, you just use the fingerings from down the octave below. Likewise, I have played many tubas where the open 5th partial is just not close enough for comfort, so I use 12 (or 3 depending on the horn) and 23 for the note below it. These are considered pretty common alternate fingerings and nothing to worry about.

[tubainty]

Adding tubing will usually make a pitch sharp, not flat. I heard some long pseudo confusing explanation for this once, but I don't remember all of it.

[Tuba Guy]

Is the Db that bad? I'd be happy to trade my Kaiser...that's got more than an out of tune Db. It should give you additional intonation quirks to have fun with.

[bort]

Adding tubing will usually make a pitch sharp, not flat. I heard some long pseudo confusing explanation for this once, but I don't remember all of it.

Doesn't sound unreasonable at all, it's 2 different things going on: 1) you "add tubing" and it lowers the pitch to change the fundamental and make a different note 2) then you have to evaluate, "is this new note in tune?"

[swillafew]

When I was a tadpole my teacher told me, "whichever fingering is most in tune is the correct one to use". He has since retired from his symphony job. He played an Alexander too.

He said the same thing about mouthpieces, "use the one that puts the horn best in tune".

[Tonelier]

Thank you everyone for all the great advice! I just thought that there might be another option I wasn't aware of to make the horn even better than perfect. This horn was extremely well maintained for many years and I most certainly realize how lucky I am to have gotten it! Anyways thanks for everything everyone!

[Rick Denney]

Adding tubing will usually make a pitch sharp, not flat. I heard some long pseudo confusing explanation for this once, but I don't remember all of it.

You are indeed the victim of confusion. When you play multiple valves, the sum of those valves is often not enough to lower the bugle's pitch by the required amount. A Bb tuba becomes a G tuba when the third valve is down. The second valve is designed to lower a Bb tuba by a semitone, not a G tuba. Thus, the combination is sharp.

But it's not because of the additional tubing, it's because of the valves used in combination. The third valve on many tubas is cut long to provide an in-tune 2-3 combination, however. In other instruments, the third valve is cut to provide an in-tune alternative to 1-2. One has to find the combinations that work best on any given instrument.

The fifth partial is frequently flat on tubas. Using sharper combinations in that range is not uncommon.

Rick "who pushes his first slide in about two inches for the C and D on the staff, fingering them 1 and 1-2, respectively" Denney

[iiipopes]

Pitch is exponential, not linear. An octave is either twice the length or one-half the length, not simply so much more. So if it takes "X" amount of tubing on the first valve circuit to lower an open Bb note a whole step to Ab, it takes "X times 2^3/12" amount of tubing to lower low G played 3rd valve to low F played 1+3 (G being three semitones down from Bb, hence this is the numerator of the exponential fraction, with 12 tones per octave being the denominator of the exponential fraction). That's why compensating instruments exist: to add automatically these extra amounts of tubing so the player can continue to use straightforward fingerings with a minimum of slide pulling.

[jeopardymaster]

Feeling curious as to whether d on the third line is also grossly flat played open. I'd expect that it is, and that you play that note 1-2 or maybe 3.