Mom here - need your opinions on tubas please

[tubistsmom]

Happy Thanksgiving all!

Hello! So glad to find this board. It's hard to find tuba players and experts in my area.

My son is 13, in his third year in band and second in jazz band. The school doesn't have instruments for the kids to practice with at home and they aren't allowed to take the tuba home on the school bus so.... his first year I ran out and bought a Jupiter 3-valve Bb 3/4 size tuba from a local music shop. It's been great for practicing at home but now two years later he's bigger and they're playing 4-valves in school and I'd love for him to be able to practice on a bigger horn at home as he preps for all-state auditions and a local honor band festival. (I think I can get $1,800 for his current tuba as it's in very good shape.)

I've researched Bb 4-valve tubas online and would love to hear your thoughts on them. I want it to last through high school and have respectable sound. I can't afford the best but also don't want junk (though I'm not 100% sure I could tell the difference.) I think he would like to continue to use top-action piston valves. He plays in concert band and jazz band so i'm not sure if one type of valve is better than the other or just a personal preference.

Yamaha YBB-321
http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-YBB-321WC-Se ... 588abd3db3" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Holton BB460
http://www.instrumentalsavings.com/Holt ... -bb460.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Wurzbach
http://cgi.ebay.com/Wurzbach-4-Valve-BB ... 19c0e82679" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Meinl Weston 2011 TA
http://www.amazon.com/Meinl-Weston-2011 ... 506&sr=1-5" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Weril J981
http://cgi.ebay.com/Demo-Weril-J981-Ful ... 53dddd8438" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

[Rick Denney]

The Holton is a rebadged Yamaha.

The Yamaha 321 (with whatever label) and the Weril copy of it are both competent instruments. The question is whether your son will be best served by a tuba with top-action valves. If the school uses this sort of tuba, then maybe. Most adult tuba players in the U.S., however, prefer front action valves (piston or rotary) with a left-facing bell. Thus, most of the better tubas for sale in the U.S. are configured in that way. Most people who play the Yamaha think it a bit ungainly.

The Meinl-Weston HoJo model is a bit more specialized than the Yamaha/Weril. It is a smaller instrument with a smaller bore and is really intended for a certain kind of jazz playing. For that application, it's a wonderful instrument. But I think your son will be better served by something with a bigger bore and that will teach him to move more air.

And at the prices presented for the Yamaha/Holton, I would think there are many better options, in particular a King 2341. If you end up selecting an instrument in this configuration, the Weril is a better value.

Even more important, though, is getting some in-person assistance, both for selecting an instrument and for supplementing your son's education. If he is motivated enough to have earned a more expensive instrument, then he would probably benefit from lessons more than a new instrument. And the teacher can also be a resource for helping you select instruments.

Another whole line of options is purchasing a used instrument from a bona fide tuba store, such as those listed on the Shops page. For the price of these instruments, a better used instrument might reward your son's efforts to a greater extent. And a used instrument bought at a fair price and cared for will still be worth that price if and when he grows as a player enough to want something different.

Where do you live? Knowing your region might lead to more specific recommendations.

Rick "and what does his school use?" Denney

[Homerun]

Rick couldn't have said it any better. Also, another thought is keeping his motivation to practice. My parents made me "buy" my first horn, by "paying" me a certain amount of money per hour that I would practice. I kept a little log, and they would see how I was progressing every week. Be creative, but most importantly, make sure he always enjoys what he's doing!

[TubaHeavy]

Try to see if you can get a king 2341. Its a excellent BBb horn in my opinion.

I'm a high school student, just to let you know.

[imperialbari]

The Wurzbach in your link isn’t a BBb tuba. It is a euphonium. So much for the competency of the distributor of this very likely Chinese made instrument.

I only have tried one sample of the old model King 2341, which had a recording bell (that is the bell pointing forward). Not the biggest BBb, but no cissyphone either. I liked it for its playability, a factor very important for a young player. The trick is twofold: finding it at the right price and making sure it is not abused or overly worn. Help from a good player, who will invest him-/herself in the acquisition process would be productive (easily said by someone definitely not living in your neighbourhood).

Klaus

PS: As I read you, taking home the school tuba is a bus problem. If so there may be the possibility that the school has a spare tuba for you son to loan. That loan for many reasons may be temporary, but it may postpone you buying until a more specific decision can be taken later (your son will have learned more about what he wants).

[SousaSaver]

Elephants advice is very good.

I would have quoted it, but the advice was very long...

[tubistsmom]

The Yamaha 321 (with whatever label) and the Weril copy of it are both competent instruments. The question is whether your son will be best served by a tuba with top-action valves. If the school uses this sort of tuba, then maybe. Most adult tuba players in the U.S., however, prefer front action valves (piston or rotary) with a left-facing bell. Thus, most of the better tubas for sale in the U.S. are configured in that way. Most people who play the Yamaha think it a bit ungainly.

THanks so much for your comments! I read in a couple places online that holding on to the tuba and turning pages of music is more difficult with front action valves and that for a smaller person, they're more difficult to hold on to. My son is 5' tall with a guess he'll hit 5'10" at some point. Is it difficult to make a transition from one type of valve to another?

Even more important, though, is getting some in-person assistance, both for selecting an instrument and for supplementing your son's education. If he is motivated enough to have earned a more expensive instrument, then he would probably benefit from lessons more than a new instrument. And the teacher can also be a resource for helping you select instruments.

He takes private lessons currently from a trombone player. I haven't found a local tubist that teaches. He's motivated enough that he practices about 45 minutes each day, some days up to 2-3 hours. Not bad for 13. He's finished out his athletic career and so tuba is the only thing he does now so I don't mind investing.

Where do you live? Knowing your region might lead to more specific recommendations.
Rick "and what does his school use?" Denney

We live in the Birmingham, Alabama area and his middle school uses Yamahas thought I'm not sure of the model.

[tubistsmom]

Rick couldn't have said it any better. Also, another thought is keeping his motivation to practice. My parents made me "buy" my first horn, by "paying" me a certain amount of money per hour that I would practice. I kept a little log, and they would see how I was progressing every week. Be creative, but most importantly, make sure he always enjoys what he's doing!

That's an awesome idea and good advice. If he doesn't enjoy playing tuba, I'm sure I won't enjoy making him play tuba.

[tubistsmom]

I agree with Rick on several points, my 2 cents:

I would try to find him a private lessons teacher 1st. Then I'd have that person help you and your son with the selection process. I'd also try to talk to his band director, and get some advice from him on this too. He should be able to provide some help with the private teacher search and the horn search.

Gotcha. He is taking private lessons from a trombone player and he's great with teaching technique and
If you decide to buy a horn:

I wouldn't get the upright valve type. Your going to end up going through this same process again when/if he decides to continue playing in college (and wants to upgrade), especially if he wants to be a music major.

Good point. And what is your opinion on the difficulty of transitioning from one valve type to another? If I have rotary or front action piston at home to practice with, he'll continue to use top-action at school (at least in middle school) and will have to go back and forth between the two types. Is it an easy switch?

[tubistsmom]

Try to see if you can get a king 2341. Its a excellent BBb horn in my opinion.

I'm a high school student, just to let you know.

Thanks for your suggestion. What types of valves did your school tubas have in middle school and now high school? Just curious.

[tubistsmom]

Help from a good player, who will invest him-/herself in the acquisition process would be productive (easily said by someone definitely not living in your neighbourhood).

I may talk with his private lesson teacher to see what he thinks but he's a trombone player but should likely still have some good advice. Thank you!

PS: As I read you, taking home the school tuba is a bus problem. If so there may be the possibility that the school has a spare tuba for you son to loan. That loan for many reasons may be temporary, but it may postpone you buying until a more specific decision can be taken later (your son will have learned more about what he wants).

Yeah, there are no extras unfortunately, which is why I bought the 3/4 size one a couple of years ago. The local band instrument store doesn't have any for rent either.

[tubistsmom]

+ = good, low cost, shiny, new

- = Chinese



http://cgi.ebay.com/Schiller-American-H ... 0489050697

Thanks for the link and pros/con. I'd love to hear your opinion on switching from top action piston to rotary and front action valves.

[Lee Stofer]

Of the instrument you listed posts to, I would only consider the Yamaha YBB 321 a viable choice. I have worked on the Yamaha-ish Holton, and it is an inferior instrument, as is the Weril.

If your son is 6 feet tall or more, and likes top-pistons, then there is nothing wrong with them. Just be advised that the Yamaha YBB 321 is a much larger instrument than the Jupiter he currently plays, and that the instrument may not be as comfortable for him to play as the Jupiter. I have refurbished and played a Yamaha 321 in a brass band, and it was a great-playing instrument. That said, there are some shorter instruments that will probably be a more comfortable, all-around instrument for him to play.

I would suggest that a good used Meinl-Weston rotary BBb (model 20 or 25), a Mirafone 186 rotary BBb, an Alexander 163 BBb, a St. Petersburg 201N or 202N BBb, or a King 2341 BBb (either new- or old-style) would most likely be very well-suited to his needs, as these are all popular makes and models in the US. There are others out there, but these would be my top picks for a good student player. If a new tuba is desired, Kanstul is offering his model 33-S as either a 4- or 5-valve model, which is a professional-quality US-made instrument, a rarity these days.

[SousaSaver]

It is not difficult to switch from top action to front action pistons. Most players in the US prefer front action pistons.

I think that the King 2341 is a great Tuba. It is a full size Tuba without being too big or heavy. Older models have a detachable bell. Both new and old models are good.

http://www.kingwinds.com/content/detail.php?model=2341W" target="_blank

here is a neat video about how they make them:

[arpthark]

I read in a couple places online that holding on to the tuba and turning pages of music is more difficult with front action valves and that for a smaller person, they're more difficult to hold on to.

Speaking from experience as one who was once 5-feet nothing and playing a top action Yamaha, switching to a front action tuba (Cerveny 681 BBb) felt like heaven. I had to sit on textbooks from 6th to 7th grade to play without craning my neck before I grew a bit. As far as switching between front action and top action, when I made the transition I noticed that front action felt a lot more natural, as my hand and wrist didn't get all skewed. But, I was a small guy then and am a small guy now. I guess it really depends on the person.

If your son has his heart set on a top-action tuba, you could consider purchasing a tuba stand, like the one sold by Baltimore Brass et al., to facilitate a more ergonomic approach.

[tubistsmom]

The Yamaha and Yamaha-built Holtons are a sort of copy of the Besson top piston horns. All are hard for me to handle and I am 6' 2" tall. For a kid these will almost ensure bad posture and habits. I have seen very few kids around here who hold them properly unless the band director is a tubist.

That's great to know. I started with a 3/4 b/c he's still relatively small at 5'0" and my gosh the big horns were just giant on him two years ago. But now he comments on how the 4/4 at school is "easier" to play than his little tuba and that of course the sound is so much "bigger." His band director played trumpet I believe but I know when we started with private lessons a few months ago we realized he was doing all kinds of stuff wrong. Particularly throat tonguing... he's been doing that for two years and we're having trouble breaking that bad technique.

Stay away form *deals* on eBay for new horns. Buy used here or through a large company where you can actually go play the horns. Buy from individuals here. Most of us are kind, decent human beings who just need to sell our horn. You will not get burned here if you use common sense. Avoid tubas on craigslist. Do not venture into these waters unless you have some experience and a powerful BS Detector. (That goes for eBay used horns as well -- very powerful BS Detection gear needed!)

I do have a superduper BS detector thankfully but I'd never buy something this important off of Craigslist and likely only off of eBay if I could do some credibility investigating first and felt super comfortable. I do need to try to find a good deal though. I wonder if some of the big online shops will deal?

You are in no hurry to get something this expensive unless you know it is what you want/need. Speak with the band director. Some are real freaky weirdos about tubas; especially those who are woodwind players. For some reason they think that tubas all have to look the same to be good for the band, and then they buy a set of craptacular Chinese horns that break (and cannot be fixed properly) and have poor intonation or a ratty sound.

So far, no freaky weirdo behavior from our band director. We have all Yamaha tubas at school. Respectable I think, right?

Stick with known good brands. Buy used. Tubas depreciate like cars; allow the other person to take the hit. An almost new horn should sell for about half of the actual cost to the buyer. After that they usually hold value pretty well for a long time if they are good horns. A one or two year old tuba will cost you MUCH less up front and (if you do not get a pice of junk) will sell again later for close to what you paid.

I'd love to find a nice, used tuba. Good analogy.

Personally, I would get him a Miraphone 186 BBb with four rotary valves. But this difference in cosmetics might give your son's director a massive MI. Good luck! Please post back here after you have done the deal with photos and everyone's reactions. We all love to look at "horn dorn" and chat about such stuff.

My son will likely just use it at home to practice and for the band festivals, honor band, etc. that he does on his own outside the school.

[tubistsmom]

Of the instrument you listed posts to, I would only consider the Yamaha YBB 321 a viable choice. I have worked on the Yamaha-ish Holton, and it is an inferior instrument, as is the Weril.

If your son is 6 feet tall or more, and likes top-pistons, then there is nothing wrong with them. Just be advised that the Yamaha YBB 321 is a much larger instrument than the Jupiter he currently plays, and that the instrument may not be as comfortable for him to play as the Jupiter. I have refurbished and played a Yamaha 321 in a brass band, and it was a great-playing instrument. That said, there are some shorter instruments that will probably be a more comfortable, all-around instrument for him to play.

Thank you, Lee. Very helpful. He's definitely not 6-feet tall and will likely not ever be so I may seriously consider the front action valves for his next tuba, which I'm hoping he'll be able to practice on for the next 4 years. Thanks for the suggestions.

[tubistsmom]

I wouldn't get the upright valve type. Your going to end up going through this same process again when/if he decides to continue playing in college (and wants to upgrade), especially if he wants to be a music major.

Good point. And what is your opinion on the difficulty of transitioning from one valve type to another? If I have rotary or front action piston at home to practice with, he'll continue to use top-action at school (at least in middle school) and will have to go back and forth between the two types. Is it an easy switch?

Yes, it is very easy. The fingering system is the exact same as long as its in the same key.

Great, thank you.

[imperialbari]

My son will likely just use it at home to practice and for the band festivals, honor band, etc. that he does on his own outside the school.

Having a good practice instrument IS important. Band festivals and honour band also appear very important to me.

As for playing various valve set-ups, the one radically different and impossible even for some professionals to adapt to hasn’t been brought up here: the 3 top pistons + 1 side piston. So we can forget about that one in this context.

I find top action instruments very handy in euphonium and F/Eb tubas, but my top action BBb is tough to handle, big and heavy as it is. I like it musically, so I play it supported by a stand.

Front action pistons and rotors sit about the same place related to the player (variations occur from model to model within each species). The worst difference between pistons and rotors isn’t so much about the finger movements. I find the differences in response and sound much harder to handle. I have both, but I prefer the pistons. A tuba authority like Bob Tucci once told me, that one has to learn handling this difference. With all due respect to the dedication of your son, then the handling this problem wouldn’t be high on my agenda, if I were his teacher. That ability may come much later in his development. So I would recommend staying with pistons.

Klaus, finding it very good you are taking action about optimizing your son’s tuba situation

[greatk82]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41745

How about this one?