Is it ethical to teach?

[DelVento]

I didn't bother reading the above posts so if I'm repeating someone above me...I'm sorry!

Coming from a student's perspective....I have this discussion with my peers (of all disciplines) and it always incites some great discussion. The issue is, what's the point of teaching the next generation of teachers to teach a bunch of teachers...THERE'S NO POINT.

Although there are some great professors without (IMHO) adequate professional performance experience; just getting their doctorates, doing some competitions, and teaching college. The whole "military band/orchestra, teach at college, get some gigs" also just doesn't work anymore. You should consider a career as a private teacher, soloist, CHAMBER MUSICIAN, jazz freelancer, and finally an ensemble musician. There's plenty of weird ways to make money on tuba and euphonium out there, and if one fails to nail the big audition, that shouldn't be discouraging at all! I would love more than anything to be the euphonium soloist in a service band, but the odds are that I'm not! So being a "smart" university student I am trying my hardest to learn my solo rep, chamber rep, work on jazz, and even klezmer! You never know where the gig is, but the smartest students are the one who become the best possible candidates for ANY gig, not just an orchestral career. There was a graduate French Horn last year that refused to play in chamber ensembles, or groups like horn choirs or brass ensembles because he was hell-bent on "focusing on his orchestral career". In the 2 years he got his master's degree there were french horn openings in the US Coast Guard Band, the US Marine Band, the Atlantic Brass Quintet, and the Connecticut Horn Choir...but he decided not to take them. Well he's now jobless, in loads of debt, and living with his parents. He sure knows his excerpts well though! I also believe that every music major should consider double majoring in music education, or seeking graduate degrees in music education. To be honest, I really hate music education courses...but job guarantee is REALLY nice. A lot of people I know who are excellent musicians (Phil Giampetro, winner of 2010 ITEC artist euph solo comp) is teaching elementary school band now! He's using it as a stepping stone for his career as a performer.

I have no clue if any of this is relevant or if it's just rambling....but I think you bring up some really valid points, obviously from the perspective of a seasoned player. I think this discussion needs to be brought up MUCH more often.

This is my favorite quote from your post:

Others stay in school and pile on the diplomas and degrees, going six figures into debt, not developing any skill other than playing their instrument, surging forward on the hope and belief that some day they will score a plum gig and be able to pay off their loans; most never will. In either case, if they were my former students, I wouldn't feel happy about my work.

[sloan]

I didn't bother reading the above posts so if I'm repeating someone above me...I'm sorry!

I stopped reading here. Did I miss anything?

[Lew]

Summarizing something Lew said that was in complete agreement with the expected truth from Ken:

The only required justification for teaching is students desiring to be taught. The motivations and desires of those students is their own business--at the college level they are grownups, or they are being funded by grownups, and it's time for the long pants.

Teachers who hoodwink their students into believing that possibilities exist that don't are simply lying, as Ken says. That's the unethical part. But parents (or future employers) who expect college to provide mere job training will not like the results they get if they are successful in realizing those expectations, and often they attempt to enforce those expectations on the students in appropriately. That is also unethical. Don't blame the teaching for either of those sins.

Dr. Sloan is a professional educator at the college level, and I'm a professional trainer at the adult level, so we come at the same conclusion from opposite directions.

Rick "who learned many things in college of no direct commercial use but of extreme professional and eduational value" Denney

Once again Rick you have been able to eloquently identify the point that I was trying to make regarding Ken's positions. You correctly stated "The only required justification for teaching is students desiring to be taught." Now that I am also a "professional educator at the college level" the unfortunate thing that I see is the number of students who appear to be in college merely to get a degree. They have no interest in learning. It is strange that college is one of the few purchases where many of the customers seem to be willing to get as little as possible for their money. I teach at a private university, so it is not inexpensive to go here, and yet I find a significant percentage of students who are going through the motions. This is true even at the graduate level, where I teach in an MBA program and a Health Informatics program. I think this is true of any major, or most things in life for that matter, what one gets from a particular experience is proportional to the effort and commitment one puts in.

[dwerden]

Would it be ethical for ME to refuse to teach a student because the job/candidate ratio is not favorable? Should the teacher or the school's admissions personnel be the ones to decide this? I favor teaching all students to the best of my ability. I give them as many experiences as possible, and I try to inform them of ALL the opportunities in music. By "ALL" I mean the opportunity to be a professional musician, the opportunity to bust their backside digging up gigs for a chamber group, the opportunity to make their living in a completely different area and play music for enjoyment on the side (or play for money, but as a supplement to their main income), the opportunities in military music, the opportunities to volunteer as a player or instructor for any number of needy groups, the opportunities in the industry in general (sales, repair, even design and engineering), etc. I try to show them as many possibilities as I think might apply given their interests.

I think ANY player should leave college with the attitude that, whether they wish to find a performing gig or not, music is a fine hobby. It enriches your life and the lives of those who get to hear you. I found a great deal of fulfillment as a professional musician for 26 years. Now I am finding it enjoyable to have a more "normal" life in some ways, working in an office 5 days a week and playing/teaching on the side. I am home much more, and I was able to be here for a lot more of my kids' growing-up time. There are sacrifices to a life of professional performance, and there are rewards. Same with the other opportunities mentioned above.

Teachers help students realize their possibilities by building their skills and teaching them about different styles, venues, etc. After that it is up to the student. I have seen people with a LOT of talent decide it was not worth the effort to maintain a playing career. For example, I'm very familiar with two players who had enormous talent, sharp minds, loads of ambition, and were good looking with great personalities. They each tried the pro life for a while and then went in different directions. Both were taking into account their families, and both are still involved with music. And I have seen some people with somewhat less talent make it and keep doing it.

And things change in a person's life. Heck, my original plan in college was to be a high school band director. But I went a different direction once I was out of school.

So, to answer your original question, "Yes."

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Yes, he is a wonderful teacher and is doing wonderful things there.

Todd, who also went there for masters study and mucked it up all on his own (long story), S. Malicoate

[Rick Denney]

They have no interest in learning.

When I have students in my adult training classes that act like they don't want to be there, I ignore them, and hope they will ignore me and the other students. If they want to just sit there and waste their time, that's fine with me. I'm paid by the hour.

Rick "who draws the line at loud snoring" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I didn't bother reading the above posts so if I'm repeating someone above me...I'm sorry!

Both learners and teachers share the basic responsibility of listening; otherwise communication is impossible, and the teacher-student relationship in both directions is defined by communication. It takes more than an apology to get out of that responsibility.

Rick "true for conversations, too, as it happens" Denney