Wait how long for a YamaYork? WRONG!

[bigbob]

WOW!!How much do you pro's make??<s> The one guy has two not one but Two 35000.00 dollar horns My fingers getting tired punching zero's) and another has a nicherl and a yamerhammer<s>I didn't think you guy's made very much money.. I guess I was wrong <s>Wonderful horns everybody has and thanks for the photos..Oh thats right none Yet<s>BB

[Uncle Buck]

I grew up in rural Arkansas about two blocks away from a guy who is truly a world-class Marimba manufacturer. Used to go over to his house to play with his son (who was my little brother's age) pretty regularly. When I went to college on the other side of the country, some of my percussion-major friends were amazed that I had "stood in the workshop." (The actual workshop wasn't too impressive, BTW.)

He is still truly one of the world's best (supplies to many top-tier orchestras), but he could have learned a thing or two about marketing. I think this has improved somewhat in more recent years, but the bottom line was that he just never charged enough damn money for his marimbas.

Not sure how relevant this story is to the thread. But my neighbor's business would have been much better off (in more ways than just cash flow, including marketing and distribution, competition, etc.), if he had been willing to charge more in those early years.

I guess my point is that being an incredibly talented artist does not necessarily make a person an expert on price points. We're all better off when we recognize and cultivate what we're good at, and seek (and take) advice from others in areas where we have less expertise. (I was starting to learn that lesson when I decided a career in music was no longer for me.)

End of scatter-brained rambling.

[greatk82]

We're all better off when we recognize and cultivate what we're good at, and seek (and take) advice from others in areas where we have less expertise.

Thanks, UncleBuck. I needed that perspective today. Now, to make those around me realize the same thing.

[Steve Marcus]

This is not meant to criticize a manufacturer's distribution policy or marketing technique, simply a comparison:

Steinway Grand Pianos have over 12,000 parts and take longer than a year to hand craft each piano. But there are no restrictions on who may purchase even a Model D, the 9-foot Concert Grand Piano. The price of a Steinway Concert Grand is high compared to mass-produced pianos, but not restrictive. In fact, the Steinway Concert Grand Piano has a retail price that is actually lower than many other 9-foot grand pianos (including Brand Y's!).

I agree with the viewpoint that by building the YCB-826, Yamaha is assuring that their contrabass horn will be in the laps of some of the most respected tuba players in the world.

Steinway considers its Concert & Artist Program its greatest promotional tool. In fact, Steinway has prevailed in court when they have pulled the line from a dealer who wanted to participate in another manufacturer's C&A program while maintaining their relationship with Steinway. The court ruled that Steinway's C&A Program is so essential to their image and marketing that participating in any other manufacturer's C&A program would compromise what sets Steinway above all other piano manufacturers.

The very essence and proof of Steinway pianos' excellent quality is that 97% of piano soloists performing with symphony orchestras choose Steinway. Not one of them is paid for that endorsement. (Yes, Steinway will occasionally buy them lunch or provide a ride from the factory in Queens to Carnegie Hall. But no one receives a free red grand piano or anything else like that.)

Perhaps Yamaha is attempting to set themselves apart from all other tuba manufacturers with this restricted purchase policy. Yamaha could simply plaster photos of Carol J. with her YFB-822 while M-W has posters of Alan B. with his 6450/2, and the same with other major tuba manufacturers. But no other tuba manufacturer, no matter how excellent their pro tubas are or which artists play them, has this restricted policy. It might be a very clever marketing tool.

[Alex C]

WOW!!How much do you pro's make??<s> The one guy has two not one but Two 35000.00 dollar horns My fingers getting tired punching zero's) and another has a nicherl and a yamerhammer<s>I didn't think you guy's made very much money.. I guess I was wrong <s>Wonderful horns everybody has and thanks for the photos..Oh thats right none Yet<s>BB

WOW!!How much do you pro's make??<s> The one guy has two not one but Two 35000.00 dollar horns My fingers getting tired punching zero's) and another has a nicherl and a yamerhammer<s>I didn't think you guy's made very much money.. I guess I was wrong <s>Wonderful horns everybody has and thanks for the photos..Oh thats right none Yet<s>BB

To give you a rough idea of how much professional musicians in the US make (perhaps "made" is more accurate):

Base pay for full time orchestra is a wide range from about $30,000 to $90,000... before the end of the recession. Several orchestras have offered/accepted paycuts of 5-20% because of the recent "improvements" in the economy.

The tuba chair is considered a principal position and a musician who is a principal negotiates his own salary, above the base pay.

Additionally, professional players usually teach at a nearby university and those salaries are negotiated. I haven't heard of university teachers offering or accepting pay cuts but the universities are federally financed. Make that another 10-20k.

Orchestral musicians often play freelance gigs. No guess on that income but many of them don't work cheap.

Lastly, orchestras often puchase expensive instruments for valued musicians. Few, if any, violinists can afford a Stradavarius violin. At least one orchestra has bought a 6/4 tuba at the principal players request, there are probably more.

If you are a member of the AFM credit union, you could finance the purchase of two or three York copies at favorable terms if you were so inclined and credit worthy.

How long this system will continue is anyone's guess.

[The Big Ben]

WOW!!How much do you pro's make??<s> The one guy has two not one but Two 35000.00 dollar horns My fingers getting tired punching zero's) and another has a nicherl and a yamerhammer<s>I didn't think you guy's made very much money.. I guess I was wrong <s>Wonderful horns everybody has and thanks for the photos..Oh thats right none Yet<s>BB

Remember, to working professionals, these are tools. Professionals get what they need. I don't know how horns are financed but, if a normal guy can get a $35K car on the easy payment plan over a 5 or 6 year period, I would expect a working world class artist should be able to do the same thing.

[bigbob]

That's very interesting Alex! Thank You! just curious...BB

[glangfur]

There are a number of facts here that aren't accurate.

Base pay for full time orchestra is a wide range from about $30,000 to $90,000

There's a wider range than that, from a little less to a lot more. Base pay at the Boston Symphony is now around 120K I believe. And I think every member of the orchestra makes over base pay.

The tuba chair is considered a principal position and a musician who is a principal negotiates his own salary, above the base pay.

While it's true that most principal players negotiate their own salary, there is also a standard overscale amount. In Boston I think it is 25%. When somebody comes in to sub in a principal chair they make the base per-service rate (I think weekly base salary divided by 8 ) + 25%.

Additionally, professional players usually teach at a nearby university and those salaries are negotiated. I haven't heard of university teachers offering or accepting pay cuts but the universities are federally financed. Make that another 10-20k.

I'm sure it would be news to the universities that they are federally financed. That's a big, complicated system - there are public universities, usually state-funded (not federal, although there are probably federal grant monies that come in to specific departments), and private universities, most of which are non-profit...although there is a strange growing sector of for-profit universities. Non-profit universities and colleges receive federal aid in the sense that they are tax-exempt, and charitable contributions to them are tax-deductible, but they are not primarily federally funded.

The salary structure for college and university teaching varies a lot, and most performing professionals who teach at a college level are paid per student or per lesson, not at a fixed salary.

Lastly, orchestras often puchase expensive instruments for valued musicians. Few, if any, violinists can afford a Stradavarius violin. At least one orchestra has bought a 6/4 tuba at the principal players request, there are probably more.

I don't think this is something that happens that often. The Boston Symphony has had a tradition of owning a tuba, and I'm not exactly sure why. They bought a Yorkbrunner for Chester Schmitz, and currently own a Nirschl that was picked out by Mike Roylance to be as close a match as possible to his personal Nirschl. The BSO also owns percussion equipment (including pianos, celestas, timpani, etc.) and some specialty instruments: at least 2 sets of Wagner tubas, a contrabass trombone, a set of vintage German trombones, not sure what else.

More often, orchestras are able to arrange financing for their players to buy expensive instruments, and this usually happens for string players. For perspective, $35,000 is on the low end for a violin regularly played in a full-time symphony orchestra, and in a place like Boston, most of the string players are probably playing instruments valued in the mid to high six figures. A cellist I knew in school won an audition for the New York Philharmonic, with the caveat that they would help her arrange a financing agreement to purchase a much better instrument as soon as possible.

Sometimes, orchestras are able to arrange for benefactors to buy high-end string instruments as long-term investments, and make them available for members of the orchestra to play. The player or the orchestra sometimes pays the insurance in this arrangement. This sometimes even happens in much smaller orchestras. the concertmaster of the Vermont Symphony, for example, plays an excellent instrument that is on loan to her by a private individual - arranged not by the orchestra but by a violin dealer, but her position as VSO concertmaster was the entry to the arrangement.

If you are a member of the AFM credit union, you could finance the purchase of two or three York copies at favorable terms if you were so inclined and credit worthy.

There's no AFM credit union that I know of, and I've been a member for over 18 years. There is an AFM credit card available, but it's not particularly great terms.

[Tom]

WOW!!How much do you pro's make??<s> The one guy has two not one but Two 35000.00 dollar horns My fingers getting tired punching zero's) and another has a nicherl and a yamerhammer<s>I didn't think you guy's made very much money.. I guess I was wrong <s>Wonderful horns everybody has and thanks for the photos..Oh thats right none Yet<s>BB

http://www.icsom.org/settlement.html

That link will give you an idea of what the scale is in various orchestras around the US. Not all of them are there, but many are, including some of the largest and "most famous" orchestras.

Let's face it...the people getting Yamaha York tubas are all pros in "major" symphony orchestras. They've already got the big jobs and are more than likely already playing a 6/4 piston CC tuba like a Yorkbrunner, Nirschl, or Meinl Weston on a daily basis.

In most cases where I personally know the orchestral pro, they happen to own multiple large orchestral 6/4 piston CC tubas ranging from Yorkbrunners to Nirschls to 6/4 Meinl Westons, usually a smaller CC tuba, sometimes a large BBb tuba, two or three F tubas, and a euphonium/tenor tuba. All before they were ever even invited to audition a Yamaha York. Some own more or less than others, but this isn't an unusual mix.

To address something mentioned in another post, it is also not at all unusual for a pro to own multiple examples-at the same time or over a period of years-of a model they especially like. There is at least one pro I know that has owned so many differnt variations of the Yorkbrunner in the last 25 or so years they've been out, he's just about lost count.

Some pros, like the one Alex speaks of, has had the orchestra purchase orchestral tubas of their choosing. They are, however, among the lucky few.

[pgym]

The very essence and proof of Steinway pianos' excellent quality is that 97% of piano soloists performing with symphony orchestras choose Steinway.

Or maybe it's just proof that symphony orchestras are too damn cheap to buy a Bösendorfer.

[Tom]

The very essence and proof of Steinway pianos' excellent quality is that 97% of piano soloists performing with symphony orchestras choose Steinway.

Or maybe it's just proof that symphony orchestras are too damn cheap to buy a Bösendorfer.

The orchestra that I work for has both.

Two Steinway model B (7') (for orchestral piano parts)
Two Steinway model D (9') (One American and One Hamburg: soloists instruments)
Bosendorfer model 225 (7' 4") with the extended keyboard. Not an imperial grand, but still a really fine piano. I can get an Imperial Grand sent to the hall if I really need one.

Also have a Yamaha C7 available if an artist happens to be a Yamaha artist.

It's absolutely true that 97% + of the people that come to play with orchestras will want a Steinway.

[Brown Mule]

Guess I'll just stick with my ole 30 year old Mirafone . I guess the old horn(my newest) is getting to the end of "depreciation" and the beginning of "appreciation". I also haven't gotten my invitation yet! I've heard General MCarthur's son is a professional Musician------wonder if he"s got his invitation? Changed his last name, you know.

[Rick Denney]

1. Bass boats often cost more than $35,000, and are usually bought by hobbyists, many of whom are paid by the hour to do things like nailing shingles to roofs or to solder pipe connections on new houses.

2. If production is limited to well below demand, any responsible business owner should sell the limited supply to those few willing to pay the most for it.

3. Yamaha may not be as picky as you think. I was specifically invited to play-test one. (Seriously! Maybe it's because I'm on Yamaha's pro list because I got them to send me their newer-formula plastic valve tacquets for my YFB-621 about 20 years ago, when I was in the TubaMeisters. Maybe they were deranged.)

Rick "who giggled at the thought but respectfully declined" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

My reply would be to invite them to 私のろばに接吻しなさい

No YamaYork invite for you!

(UncleBeer's invite also seems to have gotten lost...)

Can't you just make your own?

[thames]

Getting back to the OP - Despite all this talk of exclusivity I'd be inclined to believe what the shop assistance stated. It appears to me that he/she has undertaken a due process to confirm availability of a YCB-826.

1) They spoke with the rep and received confirmation which took a week, eg they've investigated more thoroughly than just searching an inventory system.

2) A fixed price has been provided which is consistent with that mentioned by other people, eg this must have been confirmed within Yamaha.

3) They've stated that it would be available in April 2011. A 5 month period would be realistic for custom building a new horn and not relating to a "current inventory" item.

Now, if someone from Yamaha does confirm that his information is true, then business ain't what it used to be....

I think there's only one way to find out the real situation. On behalf of us who are inquisitive, please go back to the shop, order one and let us know if it turns up in April. This only leaves one outstanding problem.......where to get $35,000 from.

[tubatom91]

I'll pitch in $50 ...if'n I get to play it for .0142858 percent of the time

[pgym]

Getting back to the OP - Despite all this talk of exclusivity I'd be inclined to believe what the shop assistance stated. It appears to me that he/she has undertaken a due process to confirm availability of a YCB-826.

1) They spoke with the rep and received confirmation which took a week, eg they've investigated more thoroughly than just searching an inventory system.

2) A fixed price has been provided which is consistent with that mentioned by other people, eg this must have been confirmed within Yamaha.

3) They've stated that it would be available in April 2011. A 5 month period would be realistic for custom building a new horn and not relating to a "current inventory" item.

The fact that an inquiry was made and answered does not in any way obligate the respondent to fill an order placed as the result of that inquiry: the price and an estimated delivery date for a CanDU pressurized heavy water nuclear reactor are readily obtainable from Atomic Energy Canada Limited, but absent approval of the sale by the Canadian gov't, of which AECL is a Crown corporation, it cannot be purchased.

[thames]

The fact that an inquiry was made and answered does not in any way obligate the respondent to fill an order placed as the result of that inquiry: the price and an estimated delivery date for a CanDU pressurized heavy water nuclear reactor are readily obtainable from Atomic Energy Canada Limited, but absent approval of the sale by the Canadian gov't, of which AECL is a Crown corporation, it cannot be purchased.

I think you onto something here. Just substitute the words.

heavy water nuclear reactor = YCB-826
Atomic Energy Canada Limited = Yamaha
Canadian gov't = Japanese gov't

Perhaps it's not Yamaha limiting supply but actually the Japanese government......I love a good conspiracy theory.

If so, then the YCB-826 must be more than just a "good" tuba, but such an excellent tuba that it warrants control by the state to ensure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands, eg a bit like the F-22 Raptor.

Getting my hands on one of these might be just the ticket to joining a big time orchestra.

[SousaSaver]

What?

[tubaguy9]

The very essence and proof of Steinway pianos' excellent quality is that 97% of piano soloists performing with symphony orchestras choose Steinway.

I think most of that is purely reputation they had from around the 20's...I personally work with a piano repairman who literally got better than the area market wanted. Skill=more knowledge of what can be done=more time able to be involved=more money to be charged. People did not want to pay him what he really was worth for his piano skills...anyways, he finds the modern Steinway's are crap, and are over-hyped, simply due to reputation. The ones from Hamburg Germany, apparently are very good, but unable to be purchased here in the US.
His thought on best piano? Sure, Bösendorfer is great, but as far as best one in what he's seen, a Fazioli is the best piano currently made...From what has been said, a Petrof would be a better one and it's less expensive than a Steinway...
Point? Well...I guess I'm not one for a lot of Yamaha's. The one good Yamaha I've tried (a YCB-822) had a rather bland sound to me. But in my opinion, a Thor also did...I'd take a German made B&S, Rudy or Mirafone over those horns any day...