tuning

[Dylan King]

[Chuck(G)]

Have a listen here http://www2.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handboo ... _Wave.aiff

Yup, your basic bass clarinet sound.

[Rick Denney]

In college, I had took a recording techniques class. The teacher brought in a tone generator that could do perfect sine waves and even square waves. I don't remember what the make was, but it was a scientific tool. I do remember it not costing much more than the Petersen, but with a lot more gadgets to mess with.

What's a square wave?

I just typed a thorough explanation, but the $^&%$&! Hampton Inn where I'm staying can't build a computer network that can stay connected, so it's lost.

So you get the short retype: A square wave is a sine wave plus all its harmonic overtones (musical or not). To create a pure square wave requires overtones of infinite frequency and a source of infinite power to create a pure vertical line on the wave form. Things that make sharp corners on wave forms are therefore associated with those ultra-high frequencies. Those things include over-driven amplifiers, bottoming-out speakers, and digital sampling that is too slow. In other words, bad things.

Rick "who never used to have problems with hotel networks" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

...
So you get the short retype: A square wave is a sine wave plus all its harmonic overtones (musical or not).

Only the odd ones, Rick. And the strength of the higher-order ones slowly decreases. IOW, the Fourier series:

[Erin]

Using similarly generated tones, I created a practice disc for each of my students -- those that use it regularly (!!) show positive results.

My teacher did this as well. It's a very helpful practice tool. (!!)

[Chuck(G)]

Slightly OT, but useful are the ear training tools here:

http://www.musictheory.net/

[JB]

Using similarly generated tones, I created a practice disc for each of my students -- those that use it regularly (!!) show positive results.

My teacher did this as well. It's a very helpful practice tool. (!!)

Interesting. As you have probably discovered, there are a wide range of applications -- from playing scales against a drone to use with getting things centered (and maintaining that "center" of the pitches) while playing slurring exercises, to discovering tendencies of both the instrument (and where you have slides set) and yourself and where you "hear" the pitches, and on and on.

I'm curious, Erin: How frequently do you use it in your practicing? (Daily, every day or so, weekly, once in a while, or "not as often as you should .") For what purposes (i.e., how) do you use yours?

Thanks in advance for the observations.

[Erin]

I'm curious, Erin: How frequently do you use it in your practicing? (Daily, every day or so, weekly, once in a while, or "not as often as you should .") For what purposes (i.e., how) do you use yours?

I use my tuning CD on average two or three times a week. (more when I want to drive the twig-suckers in the practice rooms below a little crazy.)

There is a large classroom at my school with both a powerful stereo and a piano. I turn the volume of the CD up quite loud and start with the CD playing 'C'. I play the pitch in unison with the CD. When I am satisfied with the C, I play the G above and below it, then play the E, G and C above. I play lip slurs against it, and then major scales. (Tonic and dominant) Then I repeat on another pitch. (unison, lip slurs, etc.)

When I find a significant problem I often pause the CD and buzz the pitches on my mouthpiece, using the piano as a pitch reference.

I recently made the switch to CC tuba and have found my tuning CD helpful for correcting my pitch tendancies on this instrument.

Warning: This process can be painful. Try to be within crawling distance of the campus bar for at least the first few sessions.

[Rick Denney]

...
So you get the short retype: A square wave is a sine wave plus all its harmonic overtones (musical or not).

Only the odd ones, Rick. And the strength of the higher-order ones slowly decreases. IOW, the Fourier series:

Yup, Dr. Sloan had also corrected me by private message.

My point was this: Sharp corners mean extremely high frequencies, even if only as single-wave transients, and vertical lines require infinite power (because the rate of change of amplitude is infinite). Thus, square waves are bad, but are also, in pure form, unattainable.

My longer response, lost to the void, explained that a sine wave is mathematically linked to a circle, and, as a circle is the most efficient shape, the sine wave is the most efficient tone (no noise and no harmonics). A square wave is noisy, because the sharp corners require extremely high frequencies to produce, and the vertical lines enough power to accelerate the amplitude infinitely. That ain't possible, so it does its best and noise and distortion are the result.

Rick "cautioning that the easiest way to produce sharp corners is to overdrive an amplifier" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

[
My point was this: Sharp corners mean extremely high frequencies, even if only as single-wave transients, and vertical lines require infinite power (because the rate of change of amplitude is infinite). Thus, square waves are bad, but are also, in pure form, unattainable.

Ideal square waves only require an infinitely small load, not infinite power, Rick. When the load is infinitely small (i.e. an open circuit), it requires zero power to produce an ideal square wave. A simple low-bounce switch and a penlight cell will do to produce pure square waves (at least within the lmits of measureability).

A waveform that's composed of all overtones is the sawtooth wave, which, to my ear, is even more irritating than the square wave.

[Scott Sutherland]

where can i find that thing that Pokorny tunes with...is it a cd or something???//

www.tuneupsystems.com is where you can find the one that Gene advocates. It's a much more involved and intense study of intonation than the Tuning CD and others.

Which one to order? The Tuba book or the Bass Clef C book?

I have the tuba book.

[Rick Denney]

Ideal square waves only require an infinitely small load, not infinite power, Rick.

Yes, but it is a quibble. I mentioned it because someone else mentioned a source for where one my listen to a square wave. If one listens to it, then there is a load. A square wave requires a vertical line on a the wave form, which means you have to move, say, a speaker cone from back to front without the passage of time. Of course, the mass and inertia of the speaker cone represents a load, and the faster you try to move it, the more power you need. To move it in zero amount of time requires infinite power (impossible). That's why the square wave output of a tone generator is only an approximation of a square wave.

I agree that a sawtooth is pretty unlistenable, too. But it's easier to actually produce than a square wave, and to do so without damage.

Rick "on thin ice talking wave forms with someone like Chuck" Denney

[WoodSheddin]

www.tuneupsystems.com is where you can find the one that Gene advocates. It's a much more involved and intense study of intonation than the Tuning CD and others.

Which one to order? The Tuba book or the Bass Clef C book?

I have the tuba book.

Is the tuba book geared towards BBb tuba? I play mostly CC and F when practicing. I play BBb only at work.

[ThomasP]

I purchased a copy of tuneupsystems this summer and I just have a general book. What is the difference? I am guessing that the CD the books come with are the same, just different octaves for the exercises? My book has treble and bass clef and differring track numbers at the top to explain which transposition can be used.

[Chuck(G)]

Yes, but it is a quibble. I mentioned it because someone else mentioned a source for where one my listen to a square wave. If one listens to it, then there is a load. A square wave requires a vertical line on a the wave form, which means you have to move, say, a speaker cone from back to front without the passage of time. Of course, the mass and inertia of the speaker cone represents a load, and the faster you try to move it, the more power you need. To move it in zero amount of time requires infinite power (impossible). That's why the square wave output of a tone generator is only an approximation of a square wave.

There's actually a deeper philosophical question here that I find interesting. We live in a world basically made up of square waves; either an electron is there or it isn't; either a neuron fires or it doesn't;a molecule impinges on our eardrum or it doesn't. Even our cherished audio CDs are nothing more than composites of square-wave events. The supposedly "smooth" curve of a capacitor charging isn't really--it's a stairstep function where we choose to ignore the granularity of the individual events making up the larger event. Terms like "sine wave" describing physical events appear to be nothing more than descriptive terms for bulk events.

All of this isn't really germane to the discussion except to note that there's nothing inherentlly audibly wrong with a square wave. Clarinets generate a pretty good approximation of them and there are those who argue that brass, particularly lower brass, with its emphasis of even-order overtones blends less well than other instruments. Which is probably why tubas get all of those rests in orchestral literature.

[Scott Sutherland]

Is the tuba book geared towards BBb tuba? I play mostly CC and F when practicing. I play BBb only at work.

No, it is not geared toward a specific keyed tuba. I play out of the book with both my CC and F. The reasoning behind the various books is simply so that the exercises can be in the appropriate clef and range for each instrument. The CD, as far as I can tell, is the same for all instruments.

I purchased a copy of tuneupsystems this summer and I just have a general book. What is the difference? I am guessing that the CD the books come with are the same, just different octaves for the exercises? My book has treble and bass clef and differring track numbers at the top to explain which transposition can be used.

You have the old version of the Tune Up Systems. In the old version, there was an interval exercise and a chorale exercise, most of which printed in treble clef for all instruments. The new version, which came out several months ago, is greatly expanded. The new version has a slightly different timbre used on the CD (for easier recognition of pitch discrepancies), several pages of interval and chordal exercises for each key, and a tonic track for each key. Steve Colley also has developed a new manner in which to approach his system, centered around humming to determine pitch discrepanices.

[ThomasP]

I guess it looks like I bought this CD a couple months too early, I really haven't had it that long at all.

[Jack Denniston]

If you want to download (free) for a "test drive" something very similar to the tuning cd mentioned by Mr Chisham, check out http://members.cox.net/jazztrombone/tuningcd.htm.



I downloaded this and enjoyed the "test drive". I have a question about the instructions for its use-

The trombone/euphonium instructions, step 2, say to play track 11 (Ab) and then. steps 4-7 play a Bb on your instrument. Is that correct, or should the instructions say to click on track 1 (Bb) and then play a Bb on your instrument?

Thanks,

Jack

[JB]

If you want to download (free) for a "test drive" something very similar to the tuning cd mentioned by Mr Chisham, check out http://members.cox.net/jazztrombone/tuningcd.htm.



I downloaded this and enjoyed the "test drive". I have a question about the instructions for its use-

The trombone/euphonium instructions, step 2, say to play track 11 (Ab) and then. steps 4-7 play a Bb on your instrument. Is that correct, or should the instructions say to click on track 1 (Bb) and then play a Bb on your instrument?

Thanks,

Jack

The two discs serve the same purpose, but the “Test-Drive disc is arranged better for brass (at least Bb fundamental brass), and the order of the tracks is slightly different.

Your Downloaded……………………Similar (but not exactly the same)
“Test-Driveâ€

[Rick Denney]

There's actually a deeper philosophical question here that I find interesting. We live in a world basically made up of square waves; either an electron is there or it isn't; either a neuron fires or it doesn't;a molecule impinges on our eardrum or it doesn't.

The question is granularity, of course. If the grains are small enough, they are too small to detect in the singular, in which case can only be detected en masse. The result appears to be a smooth curve.

On the question of overtones, I agree. A true square wave is not particularly listenable because of the energy in the upper harmonics, but the approximations to which we are accustomed might peel off enough of that crispiness to make it acceptable. And, yes, it might be that such a sound blends better than something with the mix of even-order harmonics that brass instruments have. It is true that the harmonics that are present in tubas are tightly linked to the taper design--some tapers can produce a sound with even-order harmonics, and others with dissonant harmonics.

The true sine wave, though it is the most efficient tone (providing the highest sound pressure level for a given input power), is not particularly listenable. That's why I don't like the phrase "rich in fundamental"--I don't want a sound like a pure sine wave.

A good sound is always a matter of opinion, but most symphony tuba players I know want a sound with enough complexity to maintain its characteristic tone to the back row. That is not a "blend" objective, but then too much blend robs orchestrated music of the color that is the reason for having different instruments. Wind ensembles blend better, and don't have that same wide color palette.

Rick "who doesn't mind counting rests as long as the tuba part, when if finally arrives, does something only the tuba can do" Denney