FYI: Tuba Man criminals

[Donn]

Certainly not held by victims of escaped murderers.

Are you saying, victims of escaped murderers would certainly prefer to accept the risk of executing an innocent man, or only that they wouldn't tend to hold any opinion one way or the other (because they might be dead?)

The latter seems vacuously true, the former just as open to question as the original. It seems like you're saying you might subscribe to one set of principles or another, depending on whether it's your ***. That happens a lot, but not always.

[TMurphy]

"I'd rather see a hundred guilty men go free, than chase after them." -Chief Wiggum

[The Big Ben]

Another concern would seem to be that whomever was *really* guilty of murder would most likely not receive any sort of punishment for the crime they committed if the wrong person was executed.

[pgym]

I'm not sure what the answer is. The punishment should ALWAYS fit the crime, but rarely ever does. As much as I loathe what Bernie Madoff did, he didn't deprive anyone of their life.

Care to say that to Ruth Madoff, Stephanie Morgan Madoff's, or the families of Rene-Thierry Magon de la Villehuchet and William Foxton?

Personally, I think the death penalty should be reserved for white collar crime. White collar criminals like Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeffrey Skilling, Andrew Fastow, Kenneth Lay, Ivan Boesky, Michael Miliken, and Nick Leeson have each destroyed more lives than any mass murderer or serial killer, and the sooner this country wakes up to that fact and starts treating them like the scum they are, the better off we'll ALL be.

[Tubaryan12]

I know my money and stuff is more important to me than most lives on this planet. If it were not, I would be giving most of the money I didn't need for survival to charity.

[Mojo workin']

Personally, I think the death penalty should be reserved for white collar crime. White collar criminals like Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeffrey Skilling, Andrew Fastow, Kenneth Lay, Ivan Boesky, Michael Miliken, and Nick Leeson have each destroyed more lives than any mass murderer or serial killer, and the sooner this country wakes up to that fact and starts treating them like the scum they are, the better off we'll ALL be.

Are you SERIOUS?

These are all slime balls that you've listed, but destroying someone's fortune is (I'm sure most would agree) not as bad as taking their life.

[Brown Mule]

Use Archie Bunker's solution-----------Issue everyone in US a gun!

[The Big Ben]

More input from a self-described liberal and also Ed's brother, specifically about these criminals:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... le25m.html" target="_blank

[pgym]

Personally, I think the death penalty should be reserved for white collar crime. White collar criminals like Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeffrey Skilling, Andrew Fastow, Kenneth Lay, Ivan Boesky, Michael Miliken, and Nick Leeson have each destroyed more lives than any mass murderer or serial killer, and the sooner this country wakes up to that fact and starts treating them like the scum they are, the better off we'll ALL be.

Are you SERIOUS?

These are all slime balls that you've listed, but destroying someone's fortune is (I'm sure most would agree) not as bad as taking their life.

It's only "not as bad as taking their life" when it's somebody else's fortune.

Have you ever sat across the table from a retiree and had to tell him or her the bulk of their life's savings have been lost due to questionable actions on the part of their financial advisor? that their pension is worthless? that as a result they no longer have the financial wherewithal to pay their health and long term care insurance premiums or the mortgage on their home? that there's nothing for them to pass on to their kids and grandkids? and that the prospect of recovery of even a token amount of their lost fortune is practically nil? Knowing that their age and health make the prospects of obtaining gainful employment--to say nothing of health insurance--extremely slim?

Have you ever had to witness the moment when the reality sinks in that everything a person has spent a lifetime hoping, dreaming, and laboring for is irretrievably gone? Or faced their anguished, "How can I face my wife/husband/kids?"

I have.

Too many times to count.

The poets have a phrase for it: "living hell." And it truly is a fate worse than death. Because they will go to their grave haunted not only by their shattered dreams, but by self-recriminations for having CHOSEN to entrust their financial well-being to someone unworthy of that trust.

The true crime of people like Madoff, Lay, Skilling, et al. is NOT that they deprive people of their material fortune. Because their material fortune can be retrieved. But how do you remedy the shattering of a person's self-image, self-respect, and confidence in his or her own judgment which took a lifetime to build? No, the true crime of people like Madoff, Lay, Skilling, et al. is that they rob a person of his or her sense of self-worth.

Pray to whatever deity or demon or spirit you invoke that you never have to go through that with your parents or your loved ones. I haven't had to--yet--and pray that I never do. It's gut-wrenching enough with clients.

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Not just one or two or a handful of people: to thousands. In one fell swoop.

"Victimless" crime?

I don't think so.

So, damn straight, I'm serious.

[Uncle Buck]

$5M to someone who only has $9M is w-a-y more important that some worthless $24K/yr. slob.

' a lawyer...' not your lawyer.

bloke "Shysters, mostly, pray on the greedy."

I work for a government agency that investigates and prosecutes Ponzi schemes. My personal experience just doesn't match up with your comments, Joe.

When the Madoff story broke, the media loved to latch onto the stories of the rich and famous who lost some of their fortune.

Unfortunately, most of the Ponzi schemes out there don't prey on the rich. Victims more often have invested their retirement savings, or taken out an extra mortgage and eventually lost their house. I've seen many more Ponzi victims who do NOT have the means to pick up and start over (like the elderly), than those who do.

Yes, there is always some element of greed. But when the shyster visits the 84 year old widow in her home, fast-talks her, and walks away with her entire 401K and the money from her newly-refinanced mortgage, and the woman ends up penniless and homeless, I'm just not inclined to blame the greed of the victim. The victim is not the one who lied and stole.

Stories like that are much, much more common than "$5M to someone who only has $9M."

[Dylan King]

Jeremiah 4:22
For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge.

[Kory101]

Jeremiah 4:22
For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge.

Hmmm....

[Mojo workin']

Don't take legal advice from a lawyer on the Internet. I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer.

Wait a minute, are you a f**king lawyer?

No wonder you think everyone values their bank account more than their life.

Madoff is a reprehensible sleazeball. I agree, he should have been served armatz.

But ONLY Madoff types???

THAT's what you said!

[Donn]

This is getting a little out of control.

Capital punishment is a "hot button" topic like a lot of other such topics, where the most vehement opinions on both sides seem to belong to people who don't have anything to do with the realities of the matter. It's usually a waste of time and energy to talk about it, is my opinion if you want it.

But I can see some sense in that `only for white collar criminals' position, though I imagine he really meant more to provoke thought than to really advocate for such an unlikely change of sentencing policies. These are the people who are usually in full possession of their faculties, fully aware of consequences of their actions, to others and possibly to themselves. If there's any hope for capital punishment as a deterrent, it might be here. If there's any sense that a capable, fully enfranchised member of society has simply set out to do massive evil to society for his own benefit, it might be here.

The philosophical conundrum posed by the usual death row convict is "why?" Why would someone do the things that put him in prison? If you assume he's sane - because if he isn't, he shouldn't be there, according to our policies. But if he is sane, what's the definition of "sane?" Maybe we should be asking this question about Madoff et al. as well, but their motives seem fairly understandable by contrast. It seems more reasonable, in a way, to kill someone if you understand him.

[Uncle Buck]

Have you ever had to witness the moment when the reality sinks in that everything a person has spent a lifetime hoping, dreaming, and laboring for is irretrievably gone? Or faced their anguished, "How can I face my wife/husband/kids?"

I have.

Too many times to count.

The poets have a phrase for it: "living hell."

Aww. That is so sad. So have you ever had to look into the eyes of a parent at the funeral of their brutally raped and tortured child?

I have.

More than once, too.

The doctors have phrase for it: "excruciating, painful death for the entertainment of others."

I cannot believe that you are taking this tack. You did a good job for a long time of making me think a little better of lawyers. And then you just blew that out of the water. That you can even attempt to equate money with life in this context offends me at such a base level that I have nothing more to say to you.

Wade, you hit the nail on the head, of course. I now regret my "sidebar" above - I agree with what I wrote, but it was not appropriate in the context of this thread (and it certainly was not intended to support the proposition of "scammer is worse than murderer").

(And you CAN find the occasional honest lawyer. But it takes some work.)

[Brown Mule]

"98% of lawyers ruin the reputation of the other 2%"

[Donn]

You guys make a compelling case for banning discussion of this matter from this forum.

[Donn]

If only.

[Mojo workin']

The philosophical conundrum posed by the usual death row convict is "why?" Why would someone do the things that put him in prison? If you assume he's sane - because if he isn't, he shouldn't be there, according to our policies. But if he is sane, what's the definition of "sane?" Maybe we should be asking this question about Madoff et al. as well, but their motives seem fairly understandable by contrast. It seems more reasonable, in a way, to kill someone if you understand him.

That is exactly the trouble with liberalism. The "why" is more important to you than the "what".

It's response to Tucson couldn't have proven this more true if it tried.

[Donn]

That is exactly the trouble with liberalism. The "why" is more important to you than the "what".

"liberalism", "conservatism" etc. is BS, that's exactly the trouble with that.

I'm talking about longstanding policy in the US: we don't execute crazies. Maybe we should - execute all crazies right away, that's the answer to Tucson, but we don't, even after they've committed whatever crime: insanity is a defense. Therefore the "why" is important to those of us in this country and any other with similar criminal law, not to "liberals" but to anyone who cares to think it through.