Mixing valve types for ergonomic reasons

[Bob Kolada]

Tubas with 4 pistons and 1 rotary are super popular, tubas with all rotaries are popular,... but it'd be nice to see a "piston" front valve horn with a different option for the 4th valve. If there's one valve on a tuba that seems to be the worst fit for people it is the 4th and there's no practical way to move that piston valve around like a rotary. So, why not a rotary 4th valve on a piston tuba?

You'd have all the benefits of quick, smooth pistons on 1-3 for quick playing in the comfortable range of the horn with the potential to make the 4th valve fit your individual horn through modifying the linkage. Quality rotary valves also seem to be lighter on average than quality piston valves so the weak pinky finger would also have a lighter valve to work. I might also suggest that, on a 5 valve horn, the 4th be on the thumb and the 5th on the pinky since the 5th valve is the least used but NOone will ever do that!

Thoughts?

My other "bright idea" is a big quint valve and a regular 6th valve on a big, preferably front action, euphonium. That would be an -excellent- small quintet/micellaneous horn.

[windshieldbug]

Been there. Done that.



They weren't, however, giving out any T-shirts.

[Tubajug]

It didn't have 5 valves, but I spoke to Bloke and TubaTinker about the idea of adding a thumb operated 4th rotary valve to a Yamaha YBB 103. I thought that would be quite comfortable.

[SousaSaver]

This can be done but it isn't very practical for many reasons.

First, from a manufacturing perspective, this would require a redesign of an instrument, or at the very least, some creative tube bending. If you wanted to do such a thing, there are many people who can do it, but I imagine that this would be costly.

If your rotors and pistons are correctly set up, they should both be smooth, quiet and quick with virtually no resistance. If you have issues with endurance in your fourth finger, take your Tuba to a tech and let him or her know you would like springs to fit your needs.

This is a big concern for me. I work very hard to get proper spring tension in pistons and rotors. It takes time, care and experience to know exactly what to use (oils, springs, etc) and how all of these things might need to be adjusted and work together.

Different horns call for different springs. Allied sells universal Tuba/Sousaphone springs for Conn instruments. I think these springs are great for 20K Sousas. I do think that they are sometimes too strong for 36K/14K Sousas, but results vary from horn to horn so I use a set of coated Yamaha Sousa springs. The tension and response is fantastic, and you have the benefit of the coating to silence the springs as well.

Just my opinion though, I could be wrong...

[T. J. Ricer]

That would probably help many people with comfort issues. . . Art Hovey built one like that:
http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/frugalhorn.html

[Bob Kolada]

First, from a manufacturing perspective, this would require a redesign of an instrument, or at the very least, some creative tube bending. If you wanted to do such a thing, there are many people who can do it, but I imagine that this would be costly.

Why? The pistons would be a 3 valve set, and the 4th rotary valve would be after that, or before it, or wherever.

[Wyvern]

Surely if that's what you want Bob, the best way would be to get an old 3 piston valve tuba and have one, or two rotary valves (with associated piping) added by your local tech? If it would play satisfactorily is another matter!

Did not Mike Johnson replace the 4th valve on compensated Besson Eb's with rotary valve with good results in opening up the low register?

[Dan Schultz]

I did something like that with a King trombonium a while back. I added the F attachment off of a .500" bore Roth-Reynolds trombone to the backside of the trombonium. When you use a rotor... it makes it possible to put the actuator just about anywhere you want it. In this particular case, I put the paddle where it could be operated by either the right-hand 'pinky' or with the left hand.

I wish I could find some more of those F attachments! They are basically flat and lay nicely against the back of a baritone or euphonium.

[Bob Kolada]

Cool horn Dan! I had a similar thought when I was looking at an American baritone a while back- they have a .56x bore and .547 trombones have a .562 F bore. An open wrap attachment like on a Benge would work just fine and offer a decent amount of slide pull.

[Art Hovey]

I wish I could find some more of those F attachments! They are basically flat and lay nicely against the back of a baritone or euphonium.

Dan, I have the rotary valves and tubing from an old King Duo-Gravis bass trombone that I have no immediate plans for. Send me a PM if you are interested.

The "frugalhorn" that TJ Ricer mentioned above is still my favorite small tuba. It was not difficult to get the spring tensions to match up. When I play it I am not aware that there is a rotary valve in the mix.

If I had my way I would remove most of the fifth valves from most of the new BBb tubas now on the market and graft them onto 3-valve tubas like the King 2340 and the Olds 0-99, adding tubing as needed to make them into conventional 4th valves with long and accessable slides. In my opinion they would all then be better instruments.

[SousaSaver]

You'd have all the benefits of quick, smooth pistons on 1-3 for quick playing in the comfortable range of the horn with the potential to make the 4th valve fit your individual horn through modifying the linkage. Quality rotary valves also seem to be lighter on average than quality piston valves so the weak pinky finger would also have a lighter valve to work.

Your original concern is to address strength issues in the 4th piston springs. My main point is that you can achieve lighter, fast action without replacing a valve with a rotor.

[Rochester2013]

I might also suggest that, on a 5 valve horn, the 4th be on the thumb and the 5th on the pinky since the 5th valve is the least used but NOone will ever do that

I believe the Elephant had a tuba for sale on here recently (in the last year?) where the 1st valve was the thumb, 2nd was in the position of the first, etc. In that case the 5th valve was the pinky.

Interesting idea.

[Bob Kolada]

Your original concern is to address strength issues in the 4th piston springs. My main point is that you can achieve lighter, fast action without replacing a valve with a rotor.

Not quite. The strength part is a secondary issue, comfortably reaching the valve is the big part.

[SousaSaver]

What kind of horn do you play that makes it difficult for you to reach the fourth valve? I am not trying to be rude, I am only trying to help.

[ken k]

I have aften thought of adding a thumb actuated rotory fourth valve to my old Buescher BBb three valved horn and tuning it to Eb rather than F. I can tune the 1&3 C and 1,2&3 B by pulling the third valve slide that I recently had inverted. By tuning the valve to Eb it makes the low Eb itself better in tune, and then also makes it possible to play the lower C and B.
I am not a big fan of pinky fourth valves, especially after playing a Boosey & Hawkes 3+1 tuba for 26 years.
ken k

[iiipopes]

I know this is about combining different types of valves, but for ergonomic "tailoring," nothing beats being able to take a rotary tuba and resolder the paddles and realign the tangs with the exact spacing, length, pitch, height and spread to match any hand.

[J.c. Sherman]

I'm forgetting the player's name (someone will remember), but there is a prominent UK tubist who has a rotary 4th on his compensating Eb. In a perfect world, this would be what I'd like in a Besson 983-style instrument, so I didn't have to play the fourth with my little finger, but could still play with the bell on the more socially-acceptable left side.

J.c.S.