Ewald Quintet

[Alex C]

If you have an active quintet and have played through various versions of Ewald Bb minor quintet, tell me which version you think is best.

Please leave the Robert King version out of consideration. It was groundbreaking in its time but no more.

[imperialbari]

I haven’t played that music myself, and when listening to it I have been disgusted, as it represents the worst in watered down romantics for me. Yet I of course have searched the web for the music, and the original parts for that quintet are available in .pdf for free from IMSLP. Get bloke’s corrections and you are ready for those intriguing nursing home jobs.

Yup, I am grumpy. My late father was active in a movement for building a hospice in our region, so I followed the subject in the public debate. I am absolutely a supporter of adequate palliative treatment, but I am not entirely happy with religious groups more or less monopolizing this business with the purpose of getting last moment proselytes and potential testators. One TV feature about an AIDS patient coming to a Catholic hospice had its dignified moments. But that nun playing insanely out of tune on her recorder during daily services had me deciding against that place at least for the nearer future.

Klaus

[BVD Press]

I will just toot my on horn and say my edition that I did of all three is the one I prefer. You can get it at various dealers for $55.00.

A review here:

http://www.trumpetguild.org/pdf/2003jou ... sicRev.pdf

After playing all of the ones available at the time, I consulted the original Russian Editions and made my own. To be honest, I am guessing there were errors in the original editions so I did my best to make sure all the parts were consistently slurred, articulated etc.

This recording would give you an indication of what you might hear at Wade's concert:

http://www.amazon.com/Baltic-Brass-Musi ... 60&sr=8-43

One of my favorites and very different...

Good luck with your decision,

[tclements]

I have an old yellowed edition published by Encore Music publishers. The complement is 2 Bb cornets, Eb horn, Bb tenor horn (in treble clef) and tuba. The score is reduced w/4 systems on every page. There are no marks on the music, and no arranger is listed. I have had these parts since the 1960's. I can only ASSUME they are pretty authentic.

[Toad Away]

Hi Alex,
For what it's worth dept:
My set has Cornett I and II, Althorn in Eb, and
Tenorhorn - Bass Clef.
Have used it from the '70s on.
It is marked ENSEMBLE PUBLICATIONS.
Love the piece and the other Ewalds.
-- Tim

[Alex C]

Honestly, I DO get the music out of the folder when asked to play it, but don't really look at it. I guess I play my own "version".

Yeah, me too but I’m looking for a version we can play together. It’s a new concept I’m trying.

I haven’t played that music myself, and when listening to it I have been disgusted, as it represents the worst in watered down romantics for me. Yet I of course have searched the web for the music, and the original parts for that quintet are available in .pdf for free from IMSLP.

Klaus

Even if you don’t like it as music, it is one of the few Romantic Era original compositions for brass. Thanks for the IMSLP idea. I hadn’t thought to start from scratch, but I may as well.

I will just toot my on horn and say my edition that I did of all three is the one I prefer. You can get it at various dealers for $55.00.

Good luck with your decision,

I had considered your edition, Brian. I’ve heard good things about it but I know we will never play all three quintets and, as stupid as it sounds… I didn’t want to add the bulk to the folders.

I have an old yellowed edition published by Encore Music publishers. The complement is 2 Bb cornets, Eb horn, Bb tenor horn (in treble clef) and tuba. The score is reduced w/4 systems on every page. There are no marks on the music, and no arranger is listed. I have had these parts since the 1960's. I can only ASSUME they are pretty authentic.

I have the same publisher’s edition of one of the Ramsoe quartets. A clunky piece of music if ever there was one. I couldn’t find the version still in print and I’m not even sure that the Encore Music that publishes today is the same one that printed those old facsimile versions with the Ozalid process. I can still smell the ammonia on mine.

If anyone can respond to the original post, I would appreciate it. This has all been helpful so far.

[Mark]

I will just toot my on horn and say my edition that I did of all three is the one I prefer. You can get it at various dealers for $55.00.

Bryan's version is the one my quintet has settled on.

[BVD Press]

I will just toot my on horn and say my edition that I did of all three is the one I prefer. You can get it at various dealers for $55.00.

Bryan's version is the one my quintet has settled on.

Glad you "settled"

[BVD Press]

If anyone wants to check out one of the first/original publications:


http://imslp.org/wiki/Brass_Quintet_No. ... d,_Victor)

[imperialbari]

Sorry about my assessment of the Ewald quintets. The quartets written by my countryman Ramsøe likely are even worse.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

The tuba fp placements after #2 are ever so more odd, as the cornets and the alto horn have the same rhythms with the fp’s placed correctly.

Klaus

[BVD Press]

If anyone wants to check out one of the first/original publications:


http://imslp.org/wiki/Brass_Quintet_No. ... d,_Victor)

That's the Leipzig edition. In the first movement (line 2 / number 2) the fp's are placed under beat number one of each measure (rather than the appropriate beat number two)...' same at number 14. My guess is that the person who typeset it from Ewald's manuscript misinterpreted the placement and made poor logic of it. At number 14, the incorrectly placed fp's are even more "specifically" wrong than those at number 2.

I disagree that the FP should be marked on beat two in the Tuba part as the Tuba is different from the rest of the upper three parts at this point. The upper three parts have FP marked on beat 2 and these parts play off the tuba line with the FP on beat one. Sort of an echo or competition which propels the music forward. In the third measure of each section, the competition continues with accents in the tuba on beats 1 and 3 followed by accents on 2 and 4 in the upper parts.

The FP slowly intensifies the music in the first two measures and then rhythmically and dynamically intensify with accents to FF for all a few measures later.

Under, over or whatever the Trombone is playing other stuff contrasting or competing against the other parts.

I do see how one can read it with the FP on beat two, but think it actually takes away from the music.

Ewald Example.png

Klaus: I would listen with the scores. Ewald doubles a lot, but there is some great stuff in there and Ewald was writing for Brass Quintet well ahead of its time. The scary part is we still play these quintets today which says a lot.

[imperialbari]

It is not my task to hang named players out to dry, so I accept my argumentation being without references. And hence being weaker.

The style of the Ewald writing (goes for Ramsøe also) is strongly influenced by string playing techniques. Good string players can interpret such stuff coherently within the general perception of what string instruments are about. That style may have been acceptable to then contemporary ears when played lightly on cornets with small mouthpieces and on lower brasses adhering to the same smallish designs.

The same type of writing was found in the old arrangements for small military brass bands, which I first met, when starting on valved alto trombone in 1960. Especially the first trombone book was very much like a selection of cello excerpts, but then the trombone was assumed being a wide bore valve trombone. During the summer of 1967 I took lessons from a retired military player having apprenticed in the then local military band not much after WWI. He knew the tricks of cheating ones way through such parts. One trick being never playing the notes on the heavy beats during fast passages as the chords would hide you anyway.

When this old music is played by less than virtuosos on modern equipment, where the trumpets, the horn, and the trombone are much less flexible instruments than what Ewald wrote for, then it in my ears sounds like either the players or the composer or all are idiots with no taste at all.

And thanks for setting up the score above here. It very much makes bloke’s point being very true. Starting on the 3rd beat of the second bar of that staff the 3 tops and the tuba play to the same effect of creating the harmonic framework for the trombone soloist without getting in the way of the soloist projecting.

The 3 tops have a wide leap into the fp note. The tuba makes a turn into what should be its fp note. That note is shorter than the ones of the top instruments to allow the tubist breathing exactly while the soloist maxes its dynamic. The turn is there to make the music move and hence the tubist cannot risk taking a breath there.

Of course this is only my interpretation, but then I am glad bloke played like I said long before I told him. Ventriloquists like having intelligent dummies.

Klaus

[Alex C]

[That's the Leipzig edition. In the first movement (line 2 / number 2) the fp's are placed under beat number one of each measure (rather than the appropriate beat number two)...' same at number 14. My guess is that the person who typeset it from Ewald's manuscript misinterpreted the placement and made poor logic of it. At number 14, the incorrectly placed fp's are even more "specifically" wrong than those at number 2.

I don't have a copy of Ewald's manuscript but I can see how the tuba at this spot could be starting the broken chord that tenor horn completes.

If Ewald's manuscript does not have slurs on the 16th notes, I would be more inclined to move the fp's 's to the half note.

The Canadian Brass "Private Archive Library" version (NOT recommended) is supposedly an urtext version and has the fp's on beat one. As it is, I have never understood the fp 8th note at that spot.

However, this is one of many intricate spots in the piece which make it so interesting. Sixteen years between performances was too long.

[Alex C]

fwiw, I believe you're quoting me (not BVD Press).

As I commented to someone privately (who communicated with me re: this), the piece (overall) just isn't that intricate...and it certainly isn't some "comical" or "light" piece (ref: the Bozza Sonatine with its many "backwards" expression markings, offbeat accents, and the like). Moreover, Ewald I is a straight-ahead romantic era composition. Regardless of who of whatever stature may be playing it the [mis-, imo]printed way live or on a recording, I'm not going to attempt to pay "lip service" (ha, bloke's funny for the day) to fp's which appear to be clumsily pasted on to 8th notes or 16th notes. Again, to me it's an obvious mistake...and I have no axe to grind here.

No offence, intended. I was referring to the score and trying to balance the various statements to decide where the fp in the tuba part belonged, if I misattributed a quote it was unintentional.

It's the little things that interest me sometimes, it doesn't have to be important to everybody. Me, I ain't mad at nobody.

[BVD Press]

I am honored Bloke's comment got attributed to me!

Good luck with the performance and let us know which version you choose. 16 years is definitely too long...

If I can find it, I have a totally amazing, awesome, outstanding performance I did of this about 15 years ago. It is all those adjectives because I missed almost every note in the opening solo! Looking back, I wished I had video as I am sure it would go tuba-viral.

Just curious if anyone has played through the Canadian Brass version? I have not picked it up yet, but I am curious...In addition, anyone know if they will be recording the set?

[Alex C]

Just curious if anyone has played through the Canadian Brass version? I have not picked it up yet, but I am curious...In addition, anyone know if they will be recording the set?

The Canadian Brass version parts don't match the score, tempo markings are inconsistant, wrong notes, etc. etc. It is the most mistake filled edition of Ewald (Bb minor quintet) available for puchase.

Since the parts are so bad, I don't feel the score can be trusted either. I did write CB about the problem but they didn't respond. So save yourself the trouble and avoid the CB version of the Ewald quintet.

[BVD Press]

just curious:

Who has ever played (for brass choir) the (same piece / different version) Ewald "SYMPHONY FOR BRASS" ?

If the same one I know, this is from Robert King and adds a Euph part. The version divides out the lines between Euph and Tuba a bit, but it is not really worth checking out. If not the King version, I don't know it.

As a side note, LeDuc/King increased the prices of ALL of their publications a few years back to match what was happening in France. This chart went from $20ish to $55. After many conversations with the representatives LeDuc sent over to run King, I was able to talk them into lowering many of the prices but not enough in my view. Another example is the GRIGORIEV Tuba etudes which are $35 per copy! I don't mind people raises prices, but these increases were just out of line.

[Alex C]

just curious:

Who has ever played (for brass choir) the (same piece / different version) Ewald "SYMPHONY FOR BRASS" ?

I played it in a brass choir in college and the tuba part has none of the 'good' licks. The euphonium part is basically the original tuba part.

That's good to know about Robert King prices. They also changed the website so that you loose a lot of the information about a piece once it's in the shopping cart. I didn't notice the change in prices then but the shopping cart was bad enough to run me off as a customer.

You have to wonder what their costs are in, for example, the Grigoriev; since Robert King did the engraving years ago, it's now just simple printing, binding and office expenses. $35 for Grigoriev? They must be trying to decrease sales. It isn't even on that big. crumbly Leduc paper that's so fun to carry around (you always looked so arty with those big floppy pages).

Any other editions of the Ewald favored by 'netters?

[BVD Press]

You have to wonder what their costs are in, for example, the Grigoriev; since Robert King did the engraving years ago, it's now just simple printing, binding and office expenses. $35 for Grigoriev? They must be trying to decrease sales. It isn't even on that big. crumbly Leduc paper that's so fun to carry around (you always looked so arty with those big floppy pages).

I asked them if I could sell the stock I had of their charts back to them at the new prices which was oddly refused...