4 or 5?

[Tom Mason]

I am making the switch. Going from BBb to CC, and am taking a really good deal on a Cerveny 601.

The question is do I need a 5th valve. Tell me the advantages to having one on a CC horn. Are there professionals out there that are using 4 valves only.

I preface this by stating that the tuba professour where I studied my undergrad degree played on a Mirafone 186 CC with only 4 valves, and was obviously outstanding on his choice. Examples of literature where the 5th valve is needed would be helpful.

[Ben]

To add to what Bloke has said (heed it well, he neither condemned nor afirmed)...

IF you choose a horn that is well in tune, 4vC's are fantastic. I have heard numerous people claim after removing/adding a 5th valve, that the 4v version "played better" Examples: Sam Gnagey with my particular 5v horn, Elephant with his... Holton? (IIRC)... People claim they can be more in tune as 4v's, more open blowing, more resonant. There very well may be serious truth to this. My 186 never left me longing for a fifth valve. I could tune it with 1&4 pushes and pulls. I now own a 184 5v(M3) and it does not need any pulls or pushes (for the exact notes Bloke points out above, have excellent alternate options).

It is a trade off. Play as many C's as you can, bring a tuner, and decide if you can live with a 4v. I assume you play a Bb now. Do you need 5v's for it? The same valve combinations will have the same intonation issues... You may find a 4v just fine. Do you need the C# above the pedal? Can you false tone it as 23 on your C that you are trying out?

[bort]

Not a huge deal, just make sure you can get to the tuning slides easily for when you need to use them.

[Bob Kolada]

I occasionally play a 56J. I play low F's and occasionally Db's and Gb's using the 5th but honestly if the horn had faster valves and slides I would be fine with it as a 4 valve. When I played a 187 Bb I never felt I needed a 5th valve.
Ask yourself, why are you switching (I'm sure you have a great reason, just for discussion)? If you found a horn that plays better for you then rock on with that.

Can you false tone it as 23 on your C that you are trying out?

Shhhh! False tones outside of old Tubenet are verboten!!!

[tclements]

Since you are asking..... I would never buy a tuba with less than 5 valves.

[Rick Denney]

There are many examples of professionals using four valve CC tubas. Two that come to mind immediately are Mike Sanders when he was playing his Alexander, and John Fletcher, who removed the fifth valve on his Holton because he thought it added stuffiness. There are many others. It is definitely not a question of it being necessary. And getting one without the fifth valve often makes an otherwise excellent instrument affordable, because guys like Tony will pass it over, heh.

It's sorta like the sixth valve on an F tuba. Lots of F tubas only have five valves, and they do work fine. But having the sixth valve is still a handy thing for those couple of notes that otherwise need a pull or big lippage.

Rick "recalling that the 601 C tuba only came with four valves" Denney

[Bill Troiano]

Don't forget Harvey had an extremely successful career playing on a 4 valve CC. I was one who found my 52J played much better when I removed the 5th valve. My first CC was a 186 4V. My teacher thought it was one of the best he played - very free blowing due to only having 4 valves. I also owned a Hirsbrunner HB1P (?). Several who didn't like that model tuba, loved the way mine blew because it only had 4 valves. Of course as timing would have it, I had to play Pictures on that Hirsbrunner, and at the time, I remember wishing I had a 5th valve just for the low F's in the piece.

[tclements]

I might add, other than the folks that play compensating instruments, I would guess just about all the pros play 5+ valved instruments, on a regular basis. On an now & again basis, we have all played 4 valved horns, but I would think the 5 valved instrument is the norm.

[Matt Walters]

If you have plans to win an Audition at a major orchestra, then these days you need a 5th valve on your CC tuba to be competitive. As for someone like me who just plays for fun, you may find that it's not worth a few extra pounds of brass on your lap for maybe 3 perfectly in-tune F’s that are actually held long enough for pitch to be heard per concert. Wait…if it is being held that long, I can push the 1st slide in to raise the pitch up that 5 cents that most audience members can’t even detect anyway. Yes, for Orchestral excerpts there are advantages to the 5thvalve for some extra fingering choices.
Then again, 5 is a bigger number than 4.

[circusboy]

Charlie Daellenbach and Bob Stewart seem to have managed pretty well with four valves.

I fairly recently switched from a 5-valver to a 4-valver. I still don't play very well, but I haven't missed the 5th. (You won't find me playing in a symphony orchestra, though.)

[cjk]

A 1+2+4 + push in F is decent enough if the first valve slide is short enough. So personally, I find the lack of a good C# and F# without a pull to be a bit more annoying than the "low F problem".

[Tom Mason]

I got the horn out today for the first time.

As per my normal day, I play along with my beginners and junior high players. At the current time, the beginners are playing out of the middle of their first year book, and my junor high players are alternatiung between scale studies, book two and three, and concert music possibilities for the spring concerts.

1. The sound I am getting on the Cerveny ACB 601 is like chocolate fudge choclate cake with chocolate icing and ice cream. YUMMMMMMMMMM!

2. I've been shooting BB's at the far wall with whatever I've played so far. Now I am chunking major portions of the wall through the next building.

3. I have a fake F through Db that is almost to die for. The work I will have to do is getting Ab, G and F# to speak as well as the rest of the horn (2-3, 4, 2-4). Fake notes were well within a moderate lipping, and none of them were flat.

Thanks for those who actually thought and responded appropriately.

[Roger Fjeldet]

5 valves - no doubt!!
I have a lot of tubas in all sizes and all tunings, with 3,4,5 (or 6) valves.
If possible I would have chosen 5 valves on every instrument
My Holton 345 Bb allows easily slidepulling on the 1st valve, and the false note (23) on low B works well, but a 5th valve would make it so much easier
But hey - just my opinion.
Roger

[Tom Mason]

Ok, lets deepen the discussion a little.

5th valve as a flat whole step, or a 2+3 combination?

If its just whatever you want, then I would match my 2nd valve on my bass trombone setup. Would entertain educated opinions.

[Tom Mason]

By the way, just because I am asking opinions doesn't mean I am about to butcher a horn just to add a valve.

[Ben]

As a guy who has 3 5v C tubas, all with differing lengths of fifth valve tubing, I have two favorites.

I like half step (2) valves. My 163 allows for 5th partial D to be played 5, C#, 52. There are many other handy combinations, but I use these bay far the most. The only issue is the way I have the horn setup, C# above pedal is sharp 12345. The use of most combinations requires some pulling or pushing of 1 along the way.

On my 184, the M3 (23) setup is becoming my favorite. I have found that I do not need to move any slides. 5th partial D is usually 13, but can be usable as 1 as a first inversion major chord. Other than that, all combis are well enough in tune, no pulling is necessary. Ditto on what Tuben said also.

[Kevin Hendrick]

I got the horn out today for the first time.

As per my normal day, I play along with my beginners and junior high players. At the current time, the beginners are playing out of the middle of their first year book, and my junor high players are alternatiung between scale studies, book two and three, and concert music possibilities for the spring concerts.

1. The sound I am getting on the Cerveny ACB 601 is like chocolate fudge choclate cake with chocolate icing and ice cream. YUMMMMMMMMMM!

2. I've been shooting BB's at the far wall with whatever I've played so far. Now I am chunking major portions of the wall through the next building.

3. I have a fake F through Db that is almost to die for. The work I will have to do is getting Ab, G and F# to speak as well as the rest of the horn (2-3, 4, 2-4). Fake notes were well within a moderate lipping, and none of them were flat.

And that's why I'm still playing my Walter Sear Cerveny after 37 years! I'm hoping it will outlive me (and it very well might) ...

By the way, just because I am asking opinions doesn't mean I am about to butcher a horn just to add a valve.

Very glad to hear that! "If it ain't broke, don't break it just to have something to fix ..."

[Kevin Hendrick]

I believe the Brazilians and the Chinese offer 3-valve CC tubas. According to observations offered forth, these should play best of all.

Hmmm ... how about a 16-foot alphorn? Might want to email Stocker and/or Rocky Mountain about that ...