Triple- vs. double tongueing question

[tubeast]

Inspired by a recent thread on multiple tongueing methods:
I have searched the archive on this, but must admit I wasn´t too thorough in the process.

We´re playing "Cervo a Primavera" this season.
12/8th time, repetitious "1/8th note, 1/8th rest, 5 1/8th notes, 1/8th rest, 5 1/8th notes rhythmic pattern.

Works most convenient when tongued with alternating syllables, counting the eighth rest as one syllable: TA-()-ta KA-ta-ka TA-()-ta KA-ta-ka TA-....
Syllables of one beat are tied by "-", first eighth note in a beat is capitalised, 1/8th break is "()". Going by the book, the above mentioned pattern would read as follows:
TA-()-ka TA-ta-ka TA-()-ka TA-ta-ka TA-...

The generally applied school of triple-tongueing seems inconsistent to me, ´cause if I´m capable of tongueing two consecutive notes with the same consonant, I should manage to squeeze in a third "ta"-syllable as well. The idea of double-tongueing seems equivalent to beating a drum with both hands vs. single-handedly. The former should be manageable twice as fast as the latter.

What do YOU tell your students if they question the Arban-approach to this subject ?

[Dylan King]

Whatever works best, do it!

[Rick Denney]

Whatever works best, do it!

Amen. My skills suck in this regard, but my usual strategy is to add only as many "ka" syllables as is necessary to be able to maintain the time. When I have any break at all, I almost always start over with a "ta" syllable.

If I worked on my "ka" syllable so that it sounded as good, I might feel differently. Usually, I want that syllable going by as fast as possible in the middle of the pattern.

Rick "who wishes he could single-tongue fast enough to never need the K articulation" Denney

[Kevin Hendrick]

If I worked on my "ka" syllable so that it sounded as good, I might feel differently. Usually, I want that syllable going by as fast as possible in the middle of the pattern.

That is exactly what my tuba prof taught me, "a few" years ago -- work as much on "ka" as on "ta" (including single-tonguing with "ka"). Same thing for "da" and "ga" (legato double-tonguing). It works.

[Roger Lewis]

The secret to getting comfortable with how your double tonguing sounds is to make sure that you are blowing THROUGH the attacks and THROUGH the lips. Many players just blow to the tongue and then all you hear is the tongue slapping around inside the oral cavity and being amplified through the horn - not really a pleasing thing to listen to. Give this a try and you'll find that you really don't need to spend a ton of time perfecting the "K" side of the attack.

Just some life experience I picked up over the years.

Roger

[JCalkin]

Here's some fuel for the fire:

I don't triple tongue. Ever. When I have a fast triplet pattern, I do:

TA-ka-ta KA-ta-ka TA-ka-ta KA-ta-ka etc.

It's "wrong," but if your T and K attacks truly sound the same, should it matter?

(I do teach my students triple tonguing because it's "correct")

[Kevin Hendrick]

Here's some fuel for the fire:

I don't triple tongue. Ever. When I have a fast triplet pattern, I do:

TA-ka-ta KA-ta-ka TA-ka-ta KA-ta-ka etc.

It's "wrong," but if your T and K attacks truly sound the same, should it matter?

(I do teach my students triple tonguing because it's "correct")

Shouldn't matter at all -- very effective approach.

[swillafew]

A wise teacher had me go very slow, and play very forcefully on the beat. It doesn't sound a thing like the music at first, but over time, velocity develops and you can diminish the accents accordingly. It takes a about a 'click a week' on the metronome to go from the first practice tempo to the performance tempo. Plan about 4 months.

[tubeast]

Hello folks,
thank You for the reassurance offered so far.
Indeed one should think the idea of not interrupting the air flow and good pronounciation of the attack syllables of one´s choice will be basic concepts of successful multitongueing.

I never felt bad about my personal choice of approach to this. Teaching a kid how to do this is a different story. I guess I´ll just suggest both approaches and let him take his pick.

Have a nice weekend

Hans

[Dylan King]

Double and triple tonguing can be helped greatly by an Arnold Jacobs approach to playing your instrument.
Try this exercise...

Without the horn, think about your tonguing syllables in your head. Hear the rhythm in your mind's-ear. How fast are you able to think it?

Probably with about the same speed and accuracy that you can play it.

Double and triple tonguing is a technique that can be practiced anywhere, without the horn. One can be listening to music on an ipod or in their can and use whatever tune they are listening to as a metronome, and then practice tonguing along with the beat. Or one can just practice it while working or walking down the street with their dog. Most of the coordination involved is something that can be worked out in the brain away from the instrument. It's kind of like practicing rhythmic tongue twisters.

Now there is a physical aspect to it as well. I have always found it quite difficult to go fast, since I have an unusually large tongue. But with practice, one can get over the physical challenges by conquering the mental aspects of the task. Once the technique is embedded in one's mind, it can be much more easily transferred to the instrument.

[Rick Denney]

Without the horn, think about your tonguing syllables in your head. Hear the rhythm in your mind's-ear. How fast are you able to think it?

Probably with about the same speed and accuracy that you can play it.

Nope, I can sound out those syllables significantly faster and cleaner than I can make them sound when blowing big air through my mouth.

There are other issues holding me back, but in this case, the think method isn't going to solve the problem.

Rick "who can think them accurately even faster than sounding them out" Denney

[Dylan King]

Without the horn, think about your tonguing syllables in your head. Hear the rhythm in your mind's-ear. How fast are you able to think it?

Probably with about the same speed and accuracy that you can play it.

Nope, I can sound out those syllables significantly faster and cleaner than I can make them sound when blowing big air through my mouth.

There are other issues holding me back, but in this case, the think method isn't going to solve the problem.

Rick "who can think them accurately even faster than sounding them out" Denney

I hear you Rick, there are physical limitations, but for a student (someone who is learning how to use the syllables) if they practice while focusing on the mind, and practice away from the instrument, they have a jump start at tonguing the sound out of the horn more successfully.

Maybe my mind is as slow as my tongue, because they seem to correspond in my playing, and my dreams.