Bug in the ear of the Chinese cloners...

[prototypedenNIS]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

It's a fair question.
The clone manufacture drives down the value of a quality horn. Instead of the seller getting 1/2 of what he paid, he gets 1/4. That's a substantial loss and it puts that person in a position where they have to spend less on whatever they needed the money for anyway. So instead of getting a good quality instrument with the money, he has to get something cheaper whether that's used or another ISO.
It could also be the difference of putting food on the table or Chinese made Ramen noodles.

So China and co. put higher priced products out of reach even when they're not actually making the direct sale while reaping the benefits of indirect sales.

People choosing used gear in greater numbers can help drive the demand based value higher so that quality used instruments can properly hold their value. People can't buy what they can't afford but if people can't get a good price, they won't sell until they're desperate. Getting a used horn can be ridiculously cheap, if you can find one.

You can sell 1 quality horn to get a new cheap one (if you're lucky).
You could sell a van load of cheap horns and not be able to afford a new quality one.

[ginnboonmiller]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

It's a fair question.
The clone manufacture drives down the value of a quality horn. Instead of the seller getting 1/2 of what he paid, he gets 1/4. That's a substantial loss and it puts that person in a position where they have to spend less on whatever they needed the money for anyway. So instead of getting a good quality instrument with the money, he has to get something cheaper whether that's used or another ISO.
It could also be the difference of putting food on the table or Chinese made Ramen noodles.

So China and co. put higher priced products out of reach even when they're not actually making the direct sale while reaping the benefits of indirect sales.

People choosing used gear in greater numbers can help drive the demand based value higher so that quality used instruments can properly hold their value. People can't buy what they can't afford but if people can't get a good price, they won't sell until they're desperate. Getting a used horn can be ridiculously cheap, if you can find one.

You can sell 1 quality horn to get a new cheap one (if you're lucky).
You could sell a van load of cheap horns and not be able to afford a new quality one.

What you're suggesting is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the guitar world when clones started outperforming the American stuff. The big American luthiers jacked up the prices of their stuff, which got better crafted, and has steadily gained value on the used market, while the Asian built clones have remained priced for what they are - player's instruments to be used without worrying about anything happening to them on stage. If anything, the Asian "clone" market (which is now pretty much dominated by the big American companies marketing those things themselves) helped develop the high prices and value of American craftsmanship in the vintage and custom markets.

My tuba was built in a communist state that no longer exists, so I have no dog in this fight. Just saying.

[pgym]

Just a note... A lot of people are saying they would rather (from a moral standpoint) buy a used American or German horn rather than a new Chinese horn. How exactly does buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one? They're still getting zero money out of it.

I hope that's a fair question

It's a fair question.
The clone manufacture drives down the value of a quality horn. Instead of the seller getting 1/2 of what he paid, he gets 1/4. That's a substantial loss and it puts that person in a position where they have to spend less on whatever they needed the money for anyway. So instead of getting a good quality instrument with the money, he has to get something cheaper whether that's used or another ISO.
It could also be the difference of putting food on the table or Chinese made Ramen noodles.

So China and co. put higher priced products out of reach even when they're not actually making the direct sale while reaping the benefits of indirect sales.

People choosing used gear in greater numbers can help drive the demand based value higher so that quality used instruments can properly hold their value. People can't buy what they can't afford but if people can't get a good price, they won't sell until they're desperate. Getting a used horn can be ridiculously cheap, if you can find one.

You can sell 1 quality horn to get a new cheap one (if you're lucky).
You could sell a van load of cheap horns and not be able to afford a new quality one.

And how, exactly, does your pontification address Levaix's question of how buying a used horn help tuba companies any more than buying a Chinese one?

[bort]

I guess it doesn't, apart from not sending yet more money to Chinese companies. But, if you buy a used tuba from a music store, you can support that store with your purchase.

[Dan Schultz]

In my opinion... where something is made really has little to do with the economy when one considers the cost of raw materials and what it REALLY costs for the labor end of things. Typically, manufacturing in the U.S. did very well to eek out a 10% profit even when it was in its heyday. The bucks were made in the sales levels leading up to the consumer. I don't suppose this has changed much.

Now.... how can we expect to buy $15,000 tubas for $3,000?

[Donn]

What you're suggesting is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the guitar world when clones started outperforming the American stuff.

There could be a scale issue here, though. If I search a couple of large cities' craiglists for "guitar" ... who knows how many there are, results cut off at 1000. For "tuba", 2 or 3. Maybe you could think of a better way to get a quick comparison of the market, but looks to me like several orders of magnitude?

And there's a generation thing, too - these days, I've read, we older guys who wanted to be rock stars when we were kids, now have the money to buy a good guitar and the time to learn, or relearn, how to play it. Best time ever to be making expensive guitars. Guys who wanted to be tuba stars back in the day are, unfortunately, not so common.

[ginnboonmiller]

What you're suggesting is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the guitar world when clones started outperforming the American stuff.

There could be a scale issue here, though. If I search a couple of large cities' craiglists for "guitar" ... who knows how many there are, results cut off at 1000. For "tuba", 2 or 3. Maybe you could think of a better way to get a quick comparison of the market, but looks to me like several orders of magnitude?

And there's a generation thing, too - these days, I've read, we older guys who wanted to be rock stars when we were kids, now have the money to buy a good guitar and the time to learn, or relearn, how to play it. Best time ever to be making expensive guitars. Guys who wanted to be tuba stars back in the day are, unfortunately, not so common.

Good point - and no secret that I keep bringing this up because I used to sell expensive guitars. But at the same time, it's a little easier to predict the tuba market, because we can all list a good percentage of them by name. And it's not hard to posit that as a market, we'll react similarly. Those of us that want to get a Hirsbrunner will still get one, and those of us that wished we could get a decent tuba for what we have to spend on one now have a viable way to do it. Still two different markets, and they can still play off each other if manufacturers and marketers know how to react to the change in the tuba scene.

Also, given the "now we can afford a good guitar" theory - a LOT of the guitars that those guys could afford when they were kids are now priced on the vintage market at a price that only the blues lawyers can afford now. Hell, everyone played Fender stratocasters because they were cheap and the only thing at Ed's Music Emporium for a 14 year old to buy. It was pretty interesting to me, having watched a documentary about the Minutemen lately, that the working class hero guitarist was playing an "old" telecaster that generally sells for about $3500 today. He probably saved up so he could get it used for $175 in 1983.

[Michael Bush]

they can still play off each other if manufacturers and marketers know how to react to the change in the tuba scene.

This. The market is now different. That's it. It's the western manufacturers' move.

[Wyvern]

how buying a used horn help tuba companies

It puts money in the pocket of the seller to buy a new tuba which they may not be able to afford otherwise

[sloan]

how buying a used horn help tuba companies

It puts money in the pocket of the seller to buy a new tuba which they may not be able to afford otherwise

And takes money out of the pocket of the buyer.

How, precisely, are the concerns of the seller more important than those of the buyer?

[Tubaryan12]

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011 ... labor-dept

Hey, I thought privatization was a good thing.

[pgym]

I guess it doesn't, apart from not sending yet more money to Chinese companies. But, if you buy a used tuba from a music store, you can support that store with your purchase.

And if you buy a new Chinese clone from a music store, you support that store with your purchase, so what's the difference?

[pgym]

how buying a used horn help tuba companies

It puts money in the pocket of the seller to buy a new tuba which they may not be able to afford otherwise

Maybe if they can't afford to buy a new tuba without selling the perfectly serviceable tuba they already own, they shouldn't be buying a new tuba in the first place.

[TUBAD83]

Here's something that is REALLY going to encourage more manufacturing in the U.S... (' good news for Jim P.)

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011 ... labor-dept

Fox kinda failed to mention that the vast majority of these claims get dismissed before ever getting to court.

JJ

[bort]

I guess it doesn't, apart from not sending yet more money to Chinese companies. But, if you buy a used tuba from a music store, you can support that store with your purchase.

And if you buy a new Chinese clone from a music store, you support that store with your purchase, so what's the difference?

I never said there was a difference. Just pointing out that "used" doesn't have to be bad for business.

[Donn]

how buying a used horn help tuba companies

It puts money in the pocket of the seller to buy a new tuba which they may not be able to afford otherwise

Maybe if they can't afford to buy a new tuba without selling the perfectly serviceable tuba they already own, they shouldn't be buying a new tuba in the first place.

That seems like an odd perspective to me. I don't know, maybe no one should be buying a new high quality tuba - whether you can afford it or not, it's still money down the drain? Or maybe they should be reserved for the affluent who won't notice the money (I will say, musicians should be more affluent!)

[Wyvern]

how buying a used horn help tuba companies

It puts money in the pocket of the seller to buy a new tuba which they may not be able to afford otherwise

Maybe if they can't afford to buy a new tuba without selling the perfectly serviceable tuba they already own, they shouldn't be buying a new tuba in the first place.

That is a very strange view. Do not most people sell their old 'serviceable' house, or car to buy a new 'better' one - in high-price items I would have thought that normal practice. I wonder how many of the more mature tuba players have sold previous tubas to help fund new ones - I guess most? Are you suggesting we must keep the same tuba bought as a youth for life???

I guess you are young and do not appreciate the realities of domestic finance?

BTW I am not against Chinese made tubas - my lovely wife is Chinese. If they research and develop their own models and sell at low prices, good luck to them. What is wrong is coping someone else's design and riding on their hard work to develop. As I have worked in music copyright, I am surprised it is not illegal - maybe it is in Europe, but not the USA?

[bort]

I'm with Jonathan.

[pgym]

Maybe if they can't afford to buy a new tuba without selling the perfectly serviceable tuba they already own, they shouldn't be buying a new tuba in the first place.

That is a very strange view. Do not most people sell their old 'serviceable' house, or car to buy a new 'better' one - in high-price items I would have thought that normal practice. I wonder how many of the more mature tuba players have sold previous tubas to help fund new ones - I guess most? Are you suggesting we must keep the same tuba bought as a youth for life???

You obviously don't understand the difference between what people DO and what they SHOULD do: the fact that people DO something does not make it OK to do so. The fact that people buy high priced items they can't afford and the fact that Western culture encourages people to buy high priced items they can't afford doesn't make it OK for them to do so, any more than the fact that people DO drive drunk makes it OK to drive drunk.

BTW I am not against Chinese made tubas - my lovely wife is Chinese.

I'm sure you wife will be THRILLED you just called her a tuba.

If they research and develop their own models and sell at low prices, good luck to them. What is wrong is coping someone else's design and riding on their hard work to develop. As I have worked in music copyright, I am surprised it is not illegal - maybe it is in Europe, but not the USA?

Remind me again: which tubas are currently under copyright, patent, or trade dress?

[Donn]

You obviously don't understand the difference between what people DO and what they SHOULD do: the fact that people DO something does not make it OK to do so. The fact that people buy high priced items they can't afford and the fact that Western culture encourages people to buy high priced items they can't afford doesn't make it OK for them to do so, any more than the fact that people DO drive drunk makes it OK to drive drunk.

I'm sure you wife will be THRILLED you just called her a tuba.

... Said after calling a bunch of professional tuba players drunk drivers.

So, you concede the economic analysis proposed above, given that tuba players may be irresponsible with their money?