Holst - Jupiter

[Tubaryan12]

Jupiter is the only orchestra piece I have on my mp3 player. It is great.

[Anterux]

How can I compensate for my foibles? Is it OK to play some things up an octave if need be? Or is the answer practice, practice, practice?

1 that is an arrangement for band of an orchestral piece.
2 the only orchestral instruments capable of playing it are: counter-bassoon, tuba, and double basses with 5 strings or extention on 4th string.
3 so, If all tubas of your band will play as written maybe it will sound "deeper" then in the orchestral (original) version.
4 If you octave at least one of the other tubas have to do it as written.
5 Never octave if noone else has it in the octave you want to play. (or you will create something new to the arrangement).
6 some "practice practice practice" will get you there as written and give you much satisfaction. (or else: WOW Jupiter has such beautifull low notes but I didnt play them...)

you will be that tuba that will not do the octave up!

go for it.

[jmh3412]

What is interesting is the age of the arrangement - considering the general state of tubas 30 or 40 years ago. Both Mars and Jupiter are challenging for modern players, let alone Band players using 3 valve Eb's and Bb's.

[Anterux]

indeed.

And sorry for my english.

I just read what I wrote up there and didn't understand what I said...

[Anterux]

And Anterux, your english is better than our Portugese.

thanks you! I'm improving here!

[Adam C.]

Great arrangement.

The phrases with pedal CC's near the beginning sound better when doubled up the octave, I think. There's also a nasty leap up to a Bb somewhere in there- it's either from a pedal CC or low Eb.

[Anterux]

I agree in that case.

more about doubling the octave:

sometimes it sounds good, and sometimes we think it sounds good but it doesnt.

when there is no other instrument playing that octave up and there is an instrument playing lower then that octave up, it will not sound good. or at least, it will not sound as the arranger or composer would like.

(just an opinion)

hope not too confusing...

[Chuck(G)]

Anterux makes sense to me.

It's been awhile since I've seen the Boosey band arrangement, but I do recall being baffled by it and wondering if Holst really did the arranging or some unnamed minion did. I was equally perplexed by the writing for what must have been the current band instrumentation of 3-valve BBb and Eb tubas.

It definitely improves when the low notes are doubled an octave up.

[Matt G]

Easy shortcut for the Eb, D and C:

Have one of your section mates play a Bb, A, and G on the bottom of the staff while you and the others play it up the octave. If it is IN TUNE, the pedals will sound via harmonics. You'll get the same effect with more volume than trying to work up a pedal register quickly.

[Anterux]

Easy shortcut for the Eb, D and C:

Have one of your section mates play a Bb, A, and G on the bottom of the staff while you and the others play it up the octave.

That is interesting. I dont know if I understood it right...
they will be playing 4ths? or octaves?

if 4ths, yes, it will be heard the foundamental. but the 4th will be heard too.

if octaves, I dont get it...

[Matt G]

No, I worded it a little too loosely.

They should play perfect 5ths.

Bb/Eb, A/D. and G/C.

The notes should be moved up one octave from where they are written and the open fifth played above them. This will replicate the pedal note fairly well without it actually being there.

Also, the 5th should be played with a little less volume so that only the effect of the lower octave is heard and not the fifth itself.

[jmh3412]

"

The notes should be moved up one octave from where they are written and the open fifth played above them. This will replicate the pedal note fairly well without it actually being there.

Also, the 5th should be played with a little less volume so that only the effect of the lower octave is heard and not the fifth itself."

___________

This is how organ makers make 32' pipes on the cheap - effectively two notes played a fifth apart (e.g a 16' stop and a 10 2/3' drawn at the same time, will preduce a resultant 32' tone - an octave lower than the original pitch)

In organ playing this only really works when there is plenty of other stuff going on, otherwise you also hear the two orignal stops as well!______

[Anterux]

subwoofer

I think, widely in this forum, there is some confusion about what is called a pedal tone.

in fact, it is very simple:

the foundamental of the instrument and everithing below that are pedal.

witch means pedal tones are different for BBb, CC, Eb or F tubas.

for a CC, that low (very low) C is pedal.
for a BBb it is not pedal yet.

and this is valid for all brass instruments. tubas are not different in this aspect.

[Anterux]

I've always been told that pedal notes start at FF for BBb and G for CC horns.

I can accept that. But doesn't make sence to me.

Trumpets also use that way of classifying pedal tones. but even with trumpets I dont agree. What is the use?

On the other hand, I think we may be dealing with a traditionaly way of classifying those notes as pedal notes.
when tubas had just 3 valves... maybe...

In Trombones and Euphoniums (and in my point of view with all brass), pedal is from foundamental to below. these notes are realy different in various ways.

but please tell me because I want to undersatand:

on a CC tuba why from GG? why not from FF# or AAb?
it makes more sence to me from the foudamental (the first C of piano in case of CC tuba)

[Matt G]

Pedal tones are vague.

Here is why there is confusion.

The reference to "pedal" is from the organ. Most organs "pedal" octave is from the C below the staff to the open fundamental on a CC tuba. If we could all remember our notation correctly or even if the notaton was a little better standardized, this would not be an issue (C, CC, CCC, etc.). I myself can't remember it.

Anyhow, the point is moot. In this case, all of the notes fall in the lower end of the first harmonic, or second partial, register of the tuba, unless the player has a CC tuba, upon which it crosses into the fundamental, or first partial register on the open bugle. Either way, these are low notes and would be best replicated in the short term by having the notes played up one octave and having one tuba player play the 5th above these notes to replicate the sound of these low register notes. Us humans and our tubas really only hear and produce harmonics in this range not the actual fundamental tone of the pitch.

[Rick Denney]

It's been awhile since I've seen the Boosey band arrangement, but I do recall being baffled by it and wondering if Holst really did the arranging or some unnamed minion did.

I'll bet that he wrote it with the intention of it being played using false tones. Even on a three-valve BBb instrument, if it has a good false-tone register, the passage is playable.

Of course, the four-valve instruments used at the time of this arrangement (and certainly intended in something published by Boosey) are compensated, making these notes reachable even without false tones.

I absolutely agree that they should beplayed an octave up. There is no music in the other instruments within that octave, and very few players can make it sound good as written. The orchestral music does not go that low, though this arrangement may be attempting to replace the color unavailable in a wind band by explanding the pitch range downward.

To play them in fifths to create the difference tone, intonation must be perfect. The difference tone is quite sensitive to errors (twice as sensitive as with a single tone).

Rick "who thinks the part needs power more than depth" Denney