Dropping the octave

[Wyvern]

I would like views on the practice of dropping an octave lower than written, or pedalling as we call it in the UK.

Do you ever do it in band, or with orchestra? Do you think it adds to the overall sound, or the composers marked pitch should always be followed?

In particular I would be interested on views if a good idea in the Dvorak New World Symphony. The tuba is written at the same pitch as bass trombone and possibly the brass sound would be improved if the tuba played an octave lower???

Thoughts!

[Ben]

Hi Johnathan,
Dropping the octave is much more common in bands in the states than it is in orchestras. I am certain it happens in orchestra for some works. If you are looking for more to do in the New World, pull out the Ryker part. As for dropping an octave in that work, I never felt the urge to do so. How does it sound to you?

[Alex C]

In music for bands, it is often appropriate to drop a part down an octave. But if you do it all of the time it looses it's effect. It should be done for a particular purpose. If heard brass bands where the lower octave is added as a matter of course in the BBb tubas and Ithink that quickly becomes a boring sound from a musical standpoint.

As a rule, the best known composers knew what sound they wanted and for this reason I think it is rarely appropriate to do drop down an octave in an orchestral genre. Stowlowski would disagree, I'm sure.

Two cents worth.

[bort]

Depends a little on the conductor too. In college, the director of bands was a tuba player, so he would clearly dictate sometimes what he wanted dropped (especially in pop tunes... like a band + vocal accompaniment where I was asked to take the entire piece down an octave). That was interesting too, because if I decided to drop something I felt was appropriate, it was usually met with an eye from the conductor and a grin for "ok" or a finger pointing up for "nuh uh, don't do that."

[Stefan]

In a few rare circumstances I have done it in band. But generally I don't like it unless the composer indicates to take it down the octave.

Stefan

[Ben]

To clarify, yes I think dropping in orchestra should be a rare occurrence, but it is done. Ex - Dies Irae in Symph. Fantastique. There are also a couple of moments that Gene Pokorney talks about dropping the octave (I believe Prok 5) on his excerpts CD. He mentions that studying the score had driven him to these conclusions.

As an aside, people also "take things up"... Lohengrin & play with the tbones... Symph. Fantastique again...

The composer is always right, except when he's not.

[sinfonian]

I normally only drop down in one of two scenarios:

1) I am playing a descending line that all of sudden jumps up an octive as if the arranger didn't realize that I could keep going lower.

2) I have a held note at the end of the piece and it just feels like it needs more bass.

Just my 2 ¢.

[sloan]

I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, if your high range is really crappy and you can't play the part as written, feel free to drop it down an octave.

[tclements]

I have gone to band rehearsals where tuba players did that all the time; IT DROVE ME NUTS! This, like any other tool we have at our disposal, should be done for special effect and used sparingly. If done at the proper moment, it can be breathtaking. If it is done indiscriminately, it gets tiresome and mundane. It then becomes more about, "Hey, listen to my pedal C!" rather than an enhancement to an already striking musical moment. Please, go easy on the pedaling!

[gwwilk]

I have gone to band rehearsals where tuba players did that all the time; IT DROVE ME NUTS! This, like any other tool we have at our disposal, should be done for special effect and used sparingly. If done at the proper moment, it can be breathtaking. If it is done indiscriminately, it gets tiresome and mundane. It then becomes more about, "Hey, listen to my pedal C!" rather than an enhancement to an already striking musical moment. Please, go easy on the pedaling!

We had a young tuba player in our local Community Concert Band a couple of years ago who regularly dropped everything down--it drove the rest of us nuts. Fortunately he moved on, with the excuse that he was tired of listening to me (probably true.)

I normally only drop down in one of two scenarios:

1) I am playing a descending line that all of sudden jumps up an octive as if the arranger didn't realize that I could keep going lower.

2) I have a held note at the end of the piece and it just feels like it needs more bass.

We played Frank Erickson's easy but sonorous 'Christmas Music from Bach' at our Holiday Concert, and the last chord with us playing a Bb below the staff just sounded more organlike with the pedal Bb I added. A grin from the conductor (a tuba player.)

In music for bands, it is often appropriate to drop a part down an octave. But if you do it all of the time it looses it's effect. It should be done for a particular purpose. If heard brass bands where the lower octave is added as a matter of course in the BBb tubas and Ithink that quickly becomes a boring sound from a musical standpoint.

As a rule, the best known composers knew what sound they wanted and for this reason I think it is rarely appropriate to do drop down an octave in an orchestral genre. Stowlowski would disagree, I'm sure.

Our upcoming concert is a tribute to the late Alfred Reed. There's nothing there at all that lends itself to playing down an octave because of his orchestrations. Besides Alfred Reed was our conductor's doctoral professor at Miami U., and he wouldn't appreciate us messing with his mentor's works.

[Steve Marcus]

With few exceptions, there is more latitude when you are playing a transcription or arrangement vs. an original piece where the composer has clearly indicated what notes the tuba should play, and in what octave.

In original orchestral pieces, there are very few exceptions. Some of those have been mentioned in the posts above. Sometimes the tuba player might be justified to play in a different octave than indicated for well-grounded musical reasons, not on a whim or for self-amusement.

I'm a little surprised that this inquiry came from Jonathan, a tubist from the UK. In brass bands, it is not uncommon for a BBb Bass player to occasionally take the part down an octave (I enjoyed doing that with discretion in Chicago Brass Band). But this would be verbotten on a Test Piece. Most, if not all judges would subtract points if one didn't play the ink.

No comments about how music and sex should not be competitive sports, please (Brian F. et al)

[jeopardymaster]

If the orchestra can't afford to hire a contrabassoon maybe, but otherwise I don't do it. Band is another matter. Less color available on the palette.

That said, one piece that really benefits in several passages is the Carmen Dragon setting of America the Beautiful. When that appears on my stand, be it band OR orchestra, I make an exception unless instructed otherwise.

[UDELBR]

I've posted this Berlioz quote more than once when this same topic came up. Dead on target.

"No, no, no, a million times no! You musicians, you poets, prose-writers,
actors, pianists, conductors, whether of third or second or even first
rank, you do not have the right to meddle with a Shakespeare or a
Beethoven, not even to bestow on them the blessings of your knowledge and
taste."

"Is this not the utter ruin and destruction of art? And ought not we, all
of us who are in love with the glory of art and vigilant to protect the
inalienable rights of the human spirit, ought we not, when we see them
attacked, to rise up in our wrath and pursue and indict the malefactor, and
cry aloud for all to hear, "Your crime is contemptible--despair! Your
stupidity is criminal--die! May you be scorned! May you be hissed and
hooted! May you be accursed! Despair and die!"

So ... mark me down for a "no lower octave" vote.

[sloan]

If the orchestra can't afford to hire a contrabassoon maybe, but otherwise I don't do it. Band is another matter. Less color available on the palette.

That said, one piece that really benefits in several passages is the Carmen Dragon setting of America the Beautiful. When that appears on my stand, be it band OR orchestra, I make an exception unless instructed otherwise.

Even here, there are some passages that cry out for someone to drop an octave, but there are others where it's absolutely the wrong thing to do. And, even those passages that need the lower octave ALSO need someone to cover the note as written.

And then there's the piece we played recently where we had 5 tubas available - so we played the last note in 5 octaves...down 2, down 1, as written, up 1, and up 2.

On the whole, it's my opinion that this entire "down an octave" crap is a carryover from lesson exercises. Taking a line in a method book, or an etude, and playing it once as written and then again down an octave is a great EXERCISE - but it's not entirely clear that it's a great musical idea. SOMETIMES (as has been noted) the part is written in the wrong octave because the composer/arranger doesn't believe that most performers can actually play it that low (and sound good). If you are the exception, and it's clear that this is what is going on - by all means go for it. Otherwise...the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that it actually sounds better one octave down. The fact that you *can* play it doesn't meant that you *must* or even *should* play it.

And now...this opens up my pet peeve with many wannabe performers: the lack of understanding of the difference between exercises and performance. In my opinion, most of what we do in the practice room should never be heard by more than 2 pairs of ears - our own and our teacher's. And our teacher is being paid to listen to that crap. None of it is appropriate in front of a paying (or even a not paid) audience. That includes the rest of the ensemble, when playing in a group.

[GC]

Dropping is fun to do, but the first question should be whether or not it actually helps the piece, not just boosts the player's ego. If it muddies the sound, no. If it messes up the character of a passage, no. If you can't do it in tune and with good tone and balance, no. If it becomes obtrusive, no.

It may not even work within arrangements. I've seen edited Sousa marches with bass parts in octaves where they weren't written in the low octaves in the originals, and I've never played one where the addition of a lower octave didn't muddy the sound. Sousa understood tuba registers as well as anyone.

Dropping should mostly be reserved for important moments, not used indiscriminately. I have to keep reminding myself of that.

[Jesse Brown]

Are there any situations in which the sub-pedal range should be used?


Myself, I've only done it when the bass trombone player sub-pedals and only in relaxed rehearsals. Does this only fall under the category: "unmusical and useless?" haha

[TubaRay]

I'd bet $50 that there is a clause in the new national health care law that addresses this issue.

LOL

Now that the law has passed, and "we" have had the opportunity to read it, there are numerous discoveries to be made. Perhaps that is one of them.

[Karl H.]

It's fun to take the final C down to the pedal on the quintet part to Bach's Contra IX...

But I did ask my colleagues if it was cool...

Karl "ready to take the slings and arrows of outraged purists" H.

[tubeast]

Many of the points that come to my mind have been adressed already.
If I´m the only tuba in any setting, I´ll probably NOT drop octaves.
In wind orchestra, we add this as a spice. The most proficient guy gets to do it, and sometimes we take turns so everybody gets to enjoy the fun.
We always make sure enough people are playing as written. Especially at LOUD passages, enough original substance is needed.
We had this piece, though, writen by our conductor, that called for a team of two players to go down to the bowel movement region. It was fun, maybe it was perceived (right word ??) by the audience, but it doesn´t really show on the recording.
In a section of six, one gets to do it.

Playing "Titanic" by this Swiss composer whose name I forget, the closing sequence of "Näher mein Gott zu Dir" is left to low brass.
If it hadn´t been taken down, something would have been missed. This practice had been vigorously encouraged by the conductor AND her conducting teacher.

[Wyvern]

I'm a little surprised that this inquiry came from Jonathan, a tubist from the UK. In brass bands, it is not uncommon for a BBb Bass player to occasionally take the part down an octave (I enjoyed doing that with discretion in Chicago Brass Band).

Steve, it is because this happens a lot (or even perpetually*) in brass bands I am interested if done elsewhere, or is a peculiar British thing. I have always believed playing at written pitch is obligatory in orchestra - and personally only very rarely drop the octave in wind band (maybe the last chord in a hymn).

*Once playing 2nd Eb Bass in a Championship Brass band I was told to drop 'everything' the octave.