Dropping the octave

[TubaRay]

I'd bet $50 that there is a clause in the new national health care law that addresses this issue.

LOL

Now that the law has passed, and "we" have had the opportunity to read it, there are numerous discoveries to be made. Perhaps that is one of them.

[Karl H.]

It's fun to take the final C down to the pedal on the quintet part to Bach's Contra IX...

But I did ask my colleagues if it was cool...

Karl "ready to take the slings and arrows of outraged purists" H.

[tubeast]

Many of the points that come to my mind have been adressed already.
If I´m the only tuba in any setting, I´ll probably NOT drop octaves.
In wind orchestra, we add this as a spice. The most proficient guy gets to do it, and sometimes we take turns so everybody gets to enjoy the fun.
We always make sure enough people are playing as written. Especially at LOUD passages, enough original substance is needed.
We had this piece, though, writen by our conductor, that called for a team of two players to go down to the bowel movement region. It was fun, maybe it was perceived (right word ??) by the audience, but it doesn´t really show on the recording.
In a section of six, one gets to do it.

Playing "Titanic" by this Swiss composer whose name I forget, the closing sequence of "Näher mein Gott zu Dir" is left to low brass.
If it hadn´t been taken down, something would have been missed. This practice had been vigorously encouraged by the conductor AND her conducting teacher.

[Wyvern]

I'm a little surprised that this inquiry came from Jonathan, a tubist from the UK. In brass bands, it is not uncommon for a BBb Bass player to occasionally take the part down an octave (I enjoyed doing that with discretion in Chicago Brass Band).

Steve, it is because this happens a lot (or even perpetually*) in brass bands I am interested if done elsewhere, or is a peculiar British thing. I have always believed playing at written pitch is obligatory in orchestra - and personally only very rarely drop the octave in wind band (maybe the last chord in a hymn).

*Once playing 2nd Eb Bass in a Championship Brass band I was told to drop 'everything' the octave.

[Tuba-G Bass]

In the Moravian Trombone choir I play in, I usually do it for the last note of a passage,
or at the end of the chorale.
It is almost always a pedal F by the way. =:)
I am on BBb Contrabass Trombone, and playing the Bass Trombone part a octave lower anyway,
As far as my Tuba playing,
I have been asked only once so far by a conductor in concert band
to drop a note down a octave, and I do some with out being asked,
and so far has not been told to cut it out.

[iiipopes]

I rarely do it. It kills the clarity of the line. I agree in principle with the prior posts: keeping the line fluid, which can also be done by playing the octave up occasionally, if it drops too soon or on a bad note for the context of the motif, and needs more bass. I once played a season with a guy who did it routinely. It drove me nuts, also.

As far as that last one goes, I've had one really good note. The community band I played with a few years ago brought out a medley arrangement of West Side Story. The chorale was in concert D major and we were in a large hall. When we hit the cadential chord, I dropped down to the near-pedal D with 2+3+4. It locked everything together in the hall and sounded like a huge organ chord, even though I was only playing it @ mp to mf dynamic to make sure I had proper intonation, and the rest of the section stayed on the written pitch.

Outdoors -- fuggeddabbouddit. The tone spreads way to quickly and just is not heard. So if anything, I'll do the opposite and play passages that are accumulating multiple ledger lines on the sheet up an octave for audibility and clarity.

Pedalling the octave is like a strong spice in cooking: the occasional use really intensifies the flavor in a good way. Too much and it just gets bitter.

[tubaforce]

Hi! I just want to weigh in on this from another perspective. That of the String Bass player in a Wind Ensemble or Community Band. Fellahs, That contra "C" is lower than you think! Not only do I know from experience in front of a tuner on my C Tuba, but from the beats I inevitably hear against my low "B" string, 1st. Finger, as the Normally spot on player on that 2J tries to settle in! I amplify my axe enough that I rarely need help, and my finger, unlike your chops, is right where it needs to be! Don't get me wrong, I love the sound and feel of that dropped octave, especially for Bach transcriptions and such, but most players have to find the pitch, and some take so long, or don't get there, spoiling the effect we're shooting for! The several versions of Carmina Bruana I've played on Tuba were some of the most challenging examples of low playing I ever attempted! Grainger writes those low octave lines for Double Bass because they will be less muddy, and more accurate, not just because there may not be a Contra-Bassoon player, and because the Contra-Clarinet(like the paper clip my grown son plays) didn't exist yet. Oh, and those octave parts we've all had fun playing over the bottom, those are (in the "2nd.Suite" and others) probably intended for Double Bass...I never drop the octave on Bass OR Tuba in Orchestra playing, unless asked to by the composer(8va Basso Ossia) or the conductor...Just my 2cents, with apologies to Carl Orff for my spelling, Al

[iiipopes]

If I'm the only player - it's as written. More than just me - I usually drop the octave and usually at cadence points.

Indeed. Especially in a smaller ensemble where clarity and accuracy do more to knit the ensemble together.

Although... Should I be given a bass part, I will take it down the octave (within reason), unless otherwise told by the conductor.

Also indeed, because the part is already written an octave up in the convention of orchestral, and by extension to jazz band and electric bass.

[peter birch]

Ah-there we have it, "within reason". That makes all the difference. However, one man's reason is someone else's complete irrationality. Does anyone add the fifth of the chord in bass line when it is not written in? What is the difference between doing that and dropping octaves?

[1895King]

ON last Sunday's Community Band concert, we did Elgar's "As Torrents in Summer." At measure 14 the tuba line jumps an octave to the second space C after descending from F below the staff; I thought that didn't sound right so I looked at the string bass part and since it did not jump up the octave, I played the tuba line the same way. All I have is an early 20th century King BBb, but I can play just as low on it as I ever could on a 186 and the intonation is much better and more focused.

[Tom Mason]

After having read briefly the three pages so far, there is a point that most players don't get.

As a tuba player, you do not have the root of the chord 100% of the time. When this small occurance happens, then the octave does not fit the chord structure. While this happens more with bass trombone players, it does happen sometimes in tuba parts.

As a string bassist, this happens more often.

Percy Grainger is very clear on when he wanted the pedal octave in such pieces as Lincolnshire Posey, and Thre Power of rome and the Christian Heart. (Sorry if I got the title backwards)

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I don't do it very often, and would never think of doing it, in certain situations.

I think that the appropriateness of dropping an octave, is inverse to the amount of thought that goes into a piece of music. The more well thought out a piece of music is (and the better the composer is), the less I think we should take it into our own hands to alter the music.

I would almost never consider doing it in orchestra for two reasons:
......1) The tuba is not THE bass in the orchestra, the double basses handle that function.
......2) Most of the music written for orchestra, is written by the greatest musical minds in history, and I don't think I can improve on their work.

If I am tempted to drop the octave, it is usually in band (where there are other players covering the written note), but not on the highest quality wind ensemble/band compositions. If the composer is thoughtful about the composition/orchestration, then I don't think we have the right to second-guess them.

Here are the two basic situations that I might consider going 8vb:
......1) Most often on final chords, but even then, only if it enhances the effect (most recently, on a Bach organ transcription, to make the final chord sound (with a 6/4 horn) a bit more organ-like).
......2) To keep the continuity of the direction of a melody line, that suddenly jumps up an octave in the score, where it is fairly obvious that the jump was made because the composer did not know we could play down there.

My big gripe is, dropping the octave mindlessly. I generally react badly to "youngsters" who do it, just because they can.

[Tony Halloin]

In orchestral works, I think it is inappropriate to changes octaves in the tuba part unless the notes of that tuba line are printed for other instruments. For instance, in Prokofiev 5, where the tuba is linked to the bass section much of the time, Mr. Pokorny takes the liberty of playing the same line as the basses, dropping a few notes between 5 and 6. In this case, I don't think the dropping of the octave effects the overall timbre of the orchestra. Preserving the timbre of the orchestra may be what is more important here anyway. Dropping stuff on tuba really effects how the orchestra sounds (away from the tuba chair). In a band where the timbre is less fragile, a dropped octave doesn't seem to cloud the overall sound as much.

An important thing to consider when dropping the octave is that you as the tuba player end up adding many more lower overtones to the existing chord, thereby somewhat dragging down the overall sound of the ensemble. A tuba already imparts a wealth of overtones and by dropping the octave that whole mass of overtones drops the octave sometimes clouding the inner harmonies. So really, it depends on the sound the composer is going for. If it is brilliance in a last chord, than a lower octave is not appropriate. If it is dark and settled, maybe another octave is okay. Listen to the last chord of Roman Carnival Overture or Symphonie Fantastique. Does a pedal note sound appropriate there?

[finnbogi]

I would not consider playing down an octave in original orchestral music, but I have done it a few times when playing transcriptions, e.g. at pops concerts where one sometimes gets quite unnatural tuba parts - mostly due to the arranger's infamiliarity with the tuba. The same applies to some band transcriptions, but higher quality band music should in general be played as written.

Like many of the above posters, I sometimes play cadential tones (usually the tonic, sometimes the dominant) 8vb to add an organ-like colour, and there is also a handful of places in the literature where I like to add another octave if there are other tuba players covering the written part (e.g. the bass solo in Florentiner Marsch).

As someone has pointed out, playing 8vb should be a sparingly used special effect. If it is overused, it tends to ruin the 'Wow!' effect.
A few years ago, I had the fortune to sing Rachmaninov's Vesper (Всенощное бдение) - a piece famous for the low notes the basses are required to sing (a number of C's and Bb's below the staff) - several times, and I really got to know the piece and liked it very much. A year or so later, I was in St. Petersburgh and went to a concert where an excellent Russian choir sang the Vesper, and one of the basses dropped a lot of (already quite low) tones down an octave. I found this rather cool during the first movement or two but after that it started to annoy me and in the end, it completely ruined the effect of the low C's and Bb's - which incidentally are accurately placed at important or climactic places.

[Steve Marcus]

A few years ago, I had the fortune to sing Rachmaninov's Vesper (Всенощное бдение) - a piece famous for the low notes the basses are required to sing (a number of C's and Bb's below the staff) - several times, and I really got to know the piece and liked it very much. A year or so later, I was in St. Petersburgh and went to a concert where an excellent Russian choir sang the Vesper, and one of the basses dropped a lot of (already quite low) tones down an octave. I found this rather cool during the first movement or two but after that it started to annoy me and in the end, it completely ruined the effect of the low C's and Bb's - which incidentally are accurately placed at important or climactic places.

I've had the pleasure of singing it twice (as a tenor--no dropping octaves in an a cappella piece for me!). I
agree with you 100%, including your comment about the St. Petersburg performance.

Sections of Rachmaninoff's Vespers/All-Night Vigil, if not the entire piece, have probably been transcribed more than once for brass ensemble. The transcription itself may be effective to an extent, perhaps very effective. But just like transcriptions of Lauridsen's a cappella choral music, good brass transcriptions still are missing the soul and fervor of the vocal original, not to mention the religious spirit of the pieces.

[imperialbari]

Some have to:

http://vimeo.com/10990875