standardization of performance practices over the years

[bloke]

Check out this Boston Symphony Orchestra performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imPA6BfIeNQ

[snorlax]

Check out this Boston Symphony Orchestra performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imPA6BfIeNQ

There is a similar video with Bill Bell and John Swallow with a bell-front.

I assume that's the wonderfully-named Kilton Vinal Smith on F tuba.

HISTORIANS: A Question for you...Nowadays, the 27/4-size tuba in CC or BBb is frequently heard/seen in orchestras. Certainly, the average tuba today is bigger then the average tuba of 40-50 years ago.
However, "monster" tubas have existed since the 20s at least, if not sooner...but I have never seen a picture of an orchestra from the 20s---50s with one of those monsters. Were the monsters used solely for bands, or have I not seen enough pictures of orchestras from the 20s-50s? I never saw Bill Bell or Joe Novotny with a BAT in the NY Phil. I may have seen a few dozen pics of major orchestras in various decades and seen more than a few others live in NYC, but only within the last 10-15 years have I seen BATs in an orchestra. Were the BATs for bands mostly in those days?

[bloke]

Noisier/larger horns many decades ago, in my estimation, were designed to be played out-of-doors - where fewer walls (and no ceilings) were there to amplify the sound. By the late 1950's (enter amplified guitars), young people grew accustomed to hearing very loud bands perform indoors. Those people grew up, and some of them decided they liked symphonic music. London (record company) in the 1970's (in the way they produced their recordings with "larger than life" type of sound) reinforced the market for this sort of thing. Of course, this vintage BSO performance (one can tell) is actually quite loud...but obviously (and not just from the monaural recording) more "nasal" (compared to many orchestras today) in overall wind instrument timbre.

To me, though, the tempi were far more amusing than the use of the Conn baritone.

[snorlax]

Interesting, Bloke...

After having seen your screen capture, I assumed you were referring to the bellfront baritone and the F tuba, though the term "performance practice" is broad enough to include both choice of tempo and choice of instrument (as well as a few million other things).

One aspect of performance practice that seems not to respect time is the emoting conductor with the randomly-placed downbeats, but I guess at that level of music-making thay can sort that all out.

Jim "London FFRR" Williams

[Bob Kolada]

There seems to be an interesting (if not especially similar) correlation between earlier British orchestra tubists growing up euphoniumists and (and I KNOW I've read this several places!!) BSO tuba players having been bass trombonists who switched to 4 valve F tubas. I think that happened twice in a row.

Frankly, American baritones are lovely playing and very useful switch instruments which, unfortunately, most people look down their noses at. I prefer them to Bessons as solo instruments due to their much clearer sound. They are one of those charming American instruments (though I wonder where those German polka band baritones come from) that has been almost completely overlooked.

[AHynds]

I actually kind of like the sound they get in the "Dies Irae". Sounds more raw and less audition-y. And it would have been cool if they had mics setup to actually capture the tuba sound, instead of the reverberation that they're picking up.

Edit: now that I've watched the whole performance, I can safely say that I really like this performance. When they have the Dies Irae recap near the end, you can tell even from the crappy hall mic sound that the F tubist is really wailing on the low notes. Cool performance, and it was really fascinating watching Munch; it's always nice when a conductor is visibly enjoying themselves on the stand. Thanks for the find!

[Rick Denney]

...but I have never seen a picture of an orchestra from the 20s---50s with one of those monsters. Were the monsters used solely for bands, or have I not seen enough pictures of orchestras from the 20s-50s? I never saw Bill Bell or Joe Novotny with a BAT in the NY Phil. I may have seen a few dozen pics of major orchestras in various decades and seen more than a few others live in NYC, but only within the last 10-15 years have I seen BATs in an orchestra. Were the BATs for bands mostly in those days?

Jacobs used the 6/4 York from the 40's in the Chicago Symphony, and in his other symphony gigs before then. That instrument was used in the early 30's in the Philadelphia Orchestra by Donatelli. For some works, Bell played a very large King symphony bass that is comparable at least to a Rudolf Meinl 5/4, and maybe a big bigger, at least going back into the 30's. Stauffer played a Conn Orchestra Grand Bass in an orchestra in the 40's. I suspect there are more examples in the 30's and 40's than in the 50's and 60's, when rotary tubas gained popularity. But even then there were Holton proponents, despite the legendary inconsistency of those instruments.

But it was probably when Hirsbrunner brought out a more consistent BAT built to professional standards that the Jacobs style of playing made a comeback. That was in the 1980 timeframe--now 30 years ago. Many, many orchestra pros adopted that sort of instrument back in the 80's as a result. By 1990, those who were still playing smaller instruments were already in a diminishing minority.

I agree with Joe that our ears have become accustomed to amplified music over the years, which has led to orchestras playing louder and louder. (This is hard to evaluate in a recording. The timbre of loud playing isn't the same thing as being louder, and all I can tell from a recording is relative loudness and timbre.) Doug Yeo has observed the size race across all the brass, not just from the tuba player. Other brass instruments are also huge compared to their counterparts of 50 years ago.

Rick "suspecting the pedagogical reach of Arnold Jacobs has as much to do with the use of the orchestral BAT as anything" Denney

[bloke]

6/4 tubas look great on stage - due to their size, much in the way that trombones look great on stage due to their slide movement.

6/4 tubas are also are very good at assisting players in making beautiful static resonant sonorities.

Otherwise, (OK, and all same may be said of slide trombones) they are rarely the easiest things to play.

[Alex C]

But it was probably when Hirsbrunner brought out a more consistent BAT built to professional standards that the Jacobs style of playing made a comeback. That was in the 1980 timeframe--now 30 years ago.
Rick "suspecting the pedagogical reach of Arnold Jacobs has as much to do with the use of the orchestral BAT as anything" Denney

Your timeline is correct but Arnold Jacobs' style of playing a large tuba has never been adopted. I suspect you would have made that distinction that but your focus was on the timeline.

Jacobs never played as loud, as 'on the edge' as I hear from many people who play a 6/4 tuba today. His sound carried through the orchestra because of color and clarity, not massive amounts of sound. Not that he couldn't get a lot of sound but the goal was always to make a beautiful sound first.

American orchestral tuba sound can be more directly traced to Bill Bell through Joe Novotny and from the West Coast sound of Roger Bobo and Tommy Johnson. It's just played on a bigger horn now. The Hirsbrunner is perfect for that sound. There's a big fundamental but there are not a lot of upper overtones (compared to Mr. Jacobs) to get a distinctive color.

This is not meant as criticism of many extremely fine musicians playing tuba today. It's a different concept than Mr. Jacobs had and has not been adopted since.

[UTSAtuba]

[quote="Alex C"]Your timeline is correct but Arnold Jacobs' style of playing a large tuba has never been adopted...[quote]

I heard from a good source that Mr. Jacobs did not particularly like the large, enveloping sound we experience, or perceive, from most 6/4 horns...

FWIW

[bloke]

...and one lung, one eye, one finger, and one lip.

[Alex C]

I just watched the video. Wow! What a treat. I've always like Munch and that performance must have been from the late 50's. It's a little Frenchy but those brass players came to play.