Rotory vs Piston

[toobagrowl]

When I use my 5/4 rotary M-W CC as a BBb, I have to empty both the main tuning and 5th valve slides frequently. This means that I have to flip my tuba both directions. On my front action piston Holton Eb, the 4th valve collects condensation/spit and sometimes needs to be spun around to empty it out. The top action piston Holton Eb just drains everything down, so it's easy to empty.

I'm surprised Bort hasn't commented yet

[Rick Denney]

Lubricants:

Piston - basically two: valve oil and slide grease. Some add a third lighter weight slide grease to "ride throttle" on #1 and such.

Rotor - basically five: 1) main slide grease for set slides; 2) lighter grease for "riding throttle" on #1 and such; 3) linkage oil, like 3-N-1, 4) upper and lower bearing oil, like sewing machine oil; 5) (debated) a regular piston-type valve oil to pour down the leadpipe to clear out gunk that may accumulate down stream, and wash it through to the main water key.

Nah. I use the same light machine oil for the rotor pinions and all the linkage elements. I don't worry about the typical light valve oil that I use for pistons for the rotors--they should not be touching anything and regular playing keeps the moist enough to seal. The best way to keep dirt out is to keep your mouth clean, and the best way to prevent corrosion on the lead pipe is to regularly clean the instrument properly (and perhaps choose a horn when a corrosion-resistant leadpipe).

Also, the rotary valves need a shot of that light machine oil only occasionally.

The slides need what they need regardless of the valve type. And the need to adjust them quickly also seems uncorrelated to valve type.

Rick "not seeing any discriminator" Denney

[sailn2ba]

Well said, Rick. There is NO reason to choose valve type based on the arsenal of oils and greases one might accumulate.

[SousaSaver]

Lubricants:

Piston - basically two: valve oil and slide grease. Some add a third lighter weight slide grease to "ride throttle" on #1 and such.

Rotor - basically five: 1) main slide grease for set slides; 2) lighter grease for "riding throttle" on #1 and such; 3) linkage oil, like 3-N-1, 4) upper and lower bearing oil, like sewing machine oil; 5) (debated) a regular piston-type valve oil to pour down the leadpipe to clear out gunk that may accumulate down stream, and wash it through to the main water key.

Nah. I use the same light machine oil for the rotor pinions and all the linkage elements. I don't worry about the typical light valve oil that I use for pistons for the rotors--they should not be touching anything and regular playing keeps the moist enough to seal. The best way to keep dirt out is to keep your mouth clean, and the best way to prevent corrosion on the lead pipe is to regularly clean the instrument properly (and perhaps choose a horn when a corrosion-resistant leadpipe).

Also, the rotary valves need a shot of that light machine oil only occasionally.

The slides need what they need regardless of the valve type. And the need to adjust them quickly also seems uncorrelated to valve type.

Rick "not seeing any discriminator" Denney

That's all fine and dandy if every part has a nice fit, but as linkage parts wear they need heavier oils to keep the clanking quiet. Ideally, these should replaced or retrofit with more modern parts like uniballs or something equivalent. Don't you use the plastic uniballs on your rotor horn?

I have had a heck of a time trying to keep old rotors quiet between swedging bearings and making teflon bushings for moving parts.Sometimes you need a heavier oil to get rid of that last little bit of sound.

I typically use this stuff for rotor valves:
- Paxman bearing oil on the bearing spindles
- T2 valve oil on the rotor face
- Krauss medium weight instrument oil on linkage parts

Not much oil really. So I think that ultimately YOU ARE RIGHT. Dang...

[iiipopes]

These recommendations are not mine. At least for the 3-N-1 and the sewing machine oil, that's what Roger Lewis recommends.

And I still have the original "S" linkages on my 1971 186. They clank a little occasionally, but not enough to warrant wholesale rebuild to ball links, and the valve compression is still great.

[Rick Denney]

That's all fine and dandy if every part has a nice fit, but as linkage parts wear they need heavier oils to keep the clanking quiet. Ideally, these should replaced or retrofit with more modern parts like uniballs or something equivalent. Don't you use the plastic uniballs on your rotor horn?

Yes, and they work fine. I spent about twenty bucks for the materials.

They use the same oil I use for everything else.

The smaller the bearing surface, the thicker the oil needs to be to maintain a lubricating film. That's why I use thicker machine oil for rotor linkages and rotor shafts. The rotors on my 186 are pretty loose, but light machine oil is still reasonable for keeping them quiet.

If my linkages were clattery enough to need something thicker, I know what to do.

Pistons are no different. When the metal guides wear down, they rattle side-to-side in the guide slots. And that makes noise. The guides have to be replaced, and these days most prefer to replace them with nylon because it is quieter. Same as with the rotor linkages.

I don't care who recommends what and who can't tolerate the notion of a given valve type on the basis of need three little bottles instead of two (or two instead of one). Anyone who argues in favor of a particular valve type on the basis of needed lubricants is being silly.

Rick "calling like he sees it" Denney

[SousaSaver]

Pistons are no different. When the metal guides wear down, they rattle side-to-side in the guide slots. And that makes noise. The guides have to be replaced, and these days most prefer to replace them with nylon because it is quieter. Same as with the rotor linkages.

Yeah, and the nylon is terrific for that.

I don't care who recommends what and who can't tolerate the notion of a given valve type on the basis of need three little bottles instead of two (or two instead of one). Anyone who argues in favor of a particular valve type on the basis of needed lubricants is being silly.

Rick "calling like he sees it" Denney

I agree completely.

[bort]

I'm surprised Bort hasn't commented yet

I've been busy buying tubas!

I prefer rotary tubas because it's just what I know better. I've owned, played, and liked several piston tubas too, but for whatever reason, rotary tubas just make sense to me. One thing that I think is interesting is that many piston tubas have a graduated bore throughout the valve section and many (all?) rotary tubas have the same bore throughout. I've always guessed that's part of the "stuffiness" that people associate with the low register of rotary tubas. I think the low register is different on rotary tubas, but after a small amount of practice it's easily corrected (and the mental triggers for "I need to do this to make it sound like this"). Just a matter of if that level of effort is acceptable to you. Some tubas take more work than others!

Re: maintenance... rotary valves are less mechanically familiar to most people than pistons. But it's not so complicated if you spend a few minutes with it (or with someone who can teach you about it). It's very important to know how your tuba works, and to spend some time going over the tuba to figure out how things work, are connected, etc. All tubas of any kind need to be oiled, cleaned, and cared for. A well maintained rotary tuba will be silent. In the case that the linkages are totally worn and noisy, they can be replaced pretty easily.

Re: empying water from the tuba... really not a big deal. I always found that piston tubas collected water "above" the piston valves. So, there was a lot of pulling the valve slide leaning to the left, and dumping the water out. For rotary tubas (with horizontal valve slides), it's even less of a deal. The only place I find annoying is the second loop of the "pretzel" where the tuning slide is... that is, the tubing immediately behind where the usual spit valve is. On my last rotary CC, I had a second water key installed there and problem solved (may consider that for my 188). Otherwise, just a little spinning and leaning which is fine if you have the space for it. I think rotary tubas with a vertical valve slide are the easiest of all, as long as the water key is in the right place (usually isn't!).

[Rick Denney]

...One thing that I think is interesting is that many piston tubas have a graduated bore throughout the valve section and many (all?) rotary tubas have the same bore throughout. I've always guessed that's part of the "stuffiness" that people associate with the low register of rotary tubas...

The B&S Symphonie F tubas are graduated throughout. Each valve's bore is a millimeter larger than the previous valve, starting at 17mm for valves 1, 5, and 6 and ending up at 20mm for the fourth valve. The PT versions of these start larger, at 19mm, so that the first three valves (plus 5 an 6) are the same. These are actually more hollow in the low register than the Symphonie version, based on my own experience.

The Yamaha 621 has a rock-solid low register, and the valve bore is constant through all the valves (except maybe the 5th). The bore stays at the smaller end compared to the Symphonie, with a constant bore of 17.5mm.

My Holton has a larger bore on the fourth valve, at .810, and the fourth valve notes require special care. The fourth valve on my York Master, which is not graduated larger than the other valves, does not.

I'm not seeing a trend there, except maybe that instruments with some useful resistance are easier to play in the low register than those without. That is not a valve issue, but piston valves tend to have smaller bores and come earlier in the bugle than rotary valves (though again the Symphonie is the exception--the routing puts the valves quite early in the bugle compared to most contrabass rotary tubas).

Rick "seeing mostly exceptions to your generalization in his own fleet" Denney

[bort]

Thanks Rick... again, my generalization was just based on my own guessing. There's an awful lot I don't know (or measure! )

[iiipopes]

I like 3-valve pistons and 4-valve rotaries (I'm a BBb guy). My right hand has a really short pinky, and so with a 3-valve piston, like a souzy or such that has good false partials and a ride-able 1st valve slide, or the Besson 3-valve comp I sold, I'm good.

On my 186, after I got it, I went to my tech and we played "tailor," with him adjusting the height and angle of the leadpipe and receiver, the thumb ring, and the paddles in all three axes: length (including angle), height and spread. This is an advantage to rotary tubas, to custom tailor the paddles. I don't have to fidget or constantly adjust. I just play.

[Arbeegee]

Based on the only rotary tuba I ever played, I'd say, yeah, rotory valves make lots of noise. At least on this one old rotory Miraphone I bought. Had it always been that noisy I wondered? In the end I decided the music must effectively drown such things out.

RBG

Just got Ol' NelliEbelle back from the repair 'n clean shop. I'm told my Miraphone valves are not noisy at all. So what the heck do I know?

RBG

[circusboy]

I've owned two of each over the years and now have a piston model only.

If I were playing classical music exclusively, I'd have a rotor model. I feel there's more precision there that suits that music. I think pistons are better for most anything else, especially jazz, given the ability to slur and even to shape the attack a bit with the fingers.

If I were playing a 5/4 or 6/4 horn, I'd go with rotors. I've never been comfortable with the finger spread and long throw of any of the big piston horns I've tried--and my hands aren't particularly small. (I do kinda wish I'd gotten that 5/4 Rudi that Ferguson had on consignment a while back . . . .)

I've had one of each that were loud and one of each that were quiet in the handling, though I think the rotor's quiet was quieter than the piston's quiet.

I miss the lack of maintenance needed on the rotor horns. Per Matt Walters suggestion, I would begin each practice session by putting a drop or two of valve oil down the mouthpipe and never had to do anything else. Now with the piston I have to oil all valves once a week or so.

Piston horns are easier to bathe, because you don't have to disassemble the rotors to do so. For the same reason, they're easier to replate. Kanstul will replate a piston horn, but won't touch a rotor, e.g.

[k001k47]

[TMurphy]

Back in college, I once asked my teacher what the difference was.

He responded by saying, "pistons go up and down. Rotors go side to side."

I never gave it any more thought.